New levels, new feel, new atmosphere, new season.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Audio & Podcast.
My name is Rabbi Daniel Malinga.
Gentlemen, every journey has a beginning.
The journey of faith is not an exception to that.
We're going to be talking about a number of things,
touching ministry, gifts, callings, and our uniqueness as ministers.
Now, my definition of ministry, biblically,
is when the Spirit of God moves upon someone
and leads that person to do something,
that thing takes on a form of ministry.
So ministry is not just done by pulpit ministers, right?
Everyone, filled with the Holy Ghost and led by Him,
is doing ministry.
Ephesians 411 says it.
It says the fivefold equip the saints for the work of ministry.
And so it's for that reason,
because of this discussion that we're going to have,
that I handpicked the specific people to be part of the discussion.
And Apostle Enoch is a pulpit minister just like myself.
Apostle Enoch, you're very welcome.
Thank you very much.
We're going to be interested to hear your very unique perspective
as a pulpit minister.
Your journey at the beginning and how far the Lord has led you
and where the Lord has shown you is taking you.
Next to me is the man of God, Dr. George.
Now, Dr. George's perspective is also going to be interesting
because he's a minister.
He has an apostolic grace upon his life.
However, he's also a professional doctor.
And so that angle will be interesting
because ministry goes on even when you have work to do.
And then, of course, my co-host, Afimani Mclean.
And Mclean is unique in the sense that he's not a five-fold minister,
pulpit minister, but he still does ministry.
Don't you, Mclean?
Yes, I do.
Yes, you still do ministry.
You're a businessman.
You have mentorship in you.
And we'll hear the story.
So that's the discussion we're going to be having here today.
And that's the direction we're going to go.
And as the spirit leads, we shall see how far
and the things that we shall touch accordingly.
Now, I believe, I'm going to kick this off,
that when God is raising up a person,
anyone, not just a pulpit minister,
when he's raising up someone to walk into ministry,
when he wants to use someone, he uses three major ways.
One, you raise up a person under already existing structures.
Okay?
For example, Samuel.
Samuel grew up within the confines of a temple.
He found a structure that already existed.
It had its own rules and regulations.
And those structures played a role in building Samuel as a minister.
So there are people built up under structures.
Okay?
The second thing is that there are people who God brings up,
not necessarily under structures, though it's possible,
but he can bring them up under a mentor or a spiritual father.
Okay?
So for example, Elisha.
Elisha's ministry grew because he was under Elijah.
Then lastly, which is very rare, although some people try to claim it,
is God can bring up someone out of the wilderness.
They haven't been part of the system.
They don't have a mentor or a spiritual father.
Okay?
But they came out of the wilderness.
And we see this in the Bible.
We see Elijah coming out of nowhere.
Okay?
We don't know Ezekiel's spiritual father.
Okay?
We don't know Daniel's spiritual father.
Okay?
So certain men can be raised for particular seasons when God wants to do something new
that is separate from what has been happening in that current age.
And it's very, very possible.
But each has its disadvantages and advantages.
So gentlemen, that having been said, how did your journeys begin?
In line with those three systems, you can feel free.
Whoever feels like they can pitch in.
Okay.
We'll start with Apostle.
Yes.
Thank you very much, Rabbi.
It is very peculiar on how God raises up anointing.
And probably it is, I think it's important for us to have the definitions of what anointing
is because, you know, that, you know, will give us a perfect understanding to someone
who is watching us and listening to us.
So anointing is a divine enablement.
It is actually an outpouring of the spirit of God upon a human vessel that comes to,
it comes upon him to, you know, to bless humanity in different forms, in different forms.
So if it is a calling, then it must come from God.
So my journey, I think, I will begin in 2003.
It was a night.
It must have been a Wednesday night.
My father had gone to work.
He was working, you know, those night jobs or, and I'm, you know, and I'm in the room
closed, sleeping on the bed and, you know, covering my, you know, my head.
And it started, you know, as though it was a dream, like where I'm seeing some, you know,
very bright light.
And then it transitioned from a dream to now to physical reality where a supernatural
being had come and the being was calling my name.
You know.
How old were you?
You know, at that time, I think I was, I was, I was 11 transitioning into 12.
Okay.
So I got scared.
So I, you know, I said, thinking probably, you know, you know, these are thieves, you
know, coming, but probably the roof is, but amidst that voice are something so peculiar,
peace, you know, such as I've never felt before, a comfort, a joy.
So I slept back.
I couldn't tell how long really that experience lasted, but ever since within me could, could
see what was really happening.
You know, and then a couple of years, nothing really happened, but I discovered after that
I got a very strange desire to study scripture.
I think like a few, a few years after that, my father went and bought me a Bible and guess
the Bible he bought, a KJV Bible, a KJV Bible.
So I started, I started seeing that my life was not going to be like, you know, a life like
any other teenager was going to be like, I discovered that I started feeling discomfort
over certain things that, that were really a joy to those guys who were like my
classmates, my friends.
Like what?
Like I discovered I couldn't, I couldn't enjoy a lot of secular music.
Yet secular music is good.
But the moment they started playing, some weird feeling really came upon me.
And then the other thing also, I, you know, I discovered that, you know, the, the evil
that, you know, young people are always, you know, excited to do.
I discovered that I started detesting those things.
Now, I didn't know at that time that actually the Lord was calling me.
Now, 10 years after in 2012, I am, I am working, entering into a university and a very loud
voice speaks behind my, my back and say, you know, I've given you this university and
what and what.
Hey, so I turned to look at no one is there.
Very interesting.
So I actually thought now I think the Lord has given me the best marks.
He has given me the best things and, you know, now the situations in that university started
not to favor that, that the Lord had started to say, because financially my parents could
not finance my, you know, my school.
So then I discovered something.
Anyway, so one night I think I was, I was seated somewhere thinking and, and now this
voice now came back and spoke and said, I came and visited you this year at this time.
So now I recall that the other one was a what was, was a visitation.
So I, now with that, I started, I say to discover that certain things really created a very,
very bad aura in me and one of them was sickness.
So at that time every other month I could fall sick.
I could fall sick.
So then one time I really say, but what's really this sickness all about?
So I think I'm, I'm sick.
I'm in a clinic and Auntie of mine operated the clinic and on the clinic I, I, I leave
my body.
I begin to descend, to descend, to descend, to descend and boom.
You need to ascend.
You descended.
I descended.
Okay.
That is in the opposite direction.
Okay.
In the opposite direction.
Okay.
So when I started descending, I, I started to see a place that started off as dark, dark
and the more I descended, the more I started to see beings.
Then I heard now, you know, I had a voice that this is where sickness comes from.
So after that I say, okay, so sickness comes from here.
So I came back and I think after a couple of days I, but then at that time the Lord could
not, I could not step into that, you know, you know, that healing anointing by simply
the Lord showing me a vision of where sickness comes from or something.
So one time I am with a girl, you know, in some mountain and I'm reading to her some
book, you know, she used to be a girlfriend.
So as I'm reading the book, I've ever read like, I read a scripture and the words in
that book jumped from there and entered me for a lack of better word.
So, you know, I remember asking that girl, I say, have you seen it?
And she was like, see what?
Have you seen this thing?
So from that time, I knew that the Lord had called me to kick sickness and disease out
of this world.
Oh, wow.
First of all, starting with, you know, with me.
So, yes, as an individual, then from there, you know, when I mastered that, the Lord now
instructed me to start doing hospital ministry.
So every, you know, every Sunday, so throughout the week, I could be preparing myself, fasting,
praying, studying to go to a, you know, to a hospital.
And actually, how, you know, how this started, at the first time I went in 2012 to minister
to, you know, to these sick guys, you imagine you've, you know, you've apportioned your
Christmas food.
You know, when, you know, I think my dad had gone to buy food and now this one is going
to take us for this period of time.
So I said, but if I went and divided this food in quarters and I go to some hospital,
hey, he will be able to receive me.
So anyway, to cut the long story short, I was in that hospital, prayed for people, nothing
happened.
So when nothing happened, I came back, I said, Lord, I don't want to, you know, to merely
follow, you know, stories.
I am going to get this Bible and burn it down.
If nothing in this Bible happens, why is it that I go in a hospital, pray for the sick
and no one what gets you.
So when the Lord saw that I had pressed into that, he said, son, now I'm going to show you
how to enter into that.
So I started to see scripture in, you know, in, you know, in another way.
So I delved in, you know, I delved into the word of God and I saw dimensions and ways
in which the healing anointing flows.
So the next Christmas, now the Lord, now even I had power to see where, which, which word
I'm going to enter.
And I remember I saw a particular word.
I entered this word and now imagine like, you know, at that time, I had a private section
six, it was six B something.
So I entered and when I entered, I, you know, I, you know, these partitions and in that
whole wing, only one guy was there, one gentleman.
So when I reached, I, I talked to him like in about five minutes, what happened to you,
what, then I opened the scripture, read to him, then I put my hands on him.
When I put my hands on him, Rabbi, something supernatural happened.
I told the guy now, rise up, walk, the guy walked.
When the guy walked, his caretakers shouted and said, an angel, an angel.
So I, so I turned to them, I said, what's happening here?
But this man last walked six months ago and he's here for, for a cartilage, you know,
replacement.
I think he was working with the, with the, with the new vision and new vision and paid
for, for, for him to go have a what?
A cartilage what?
Replacement surgery.
So, hey, I discover, I say, man, the thing is what?
It is working.
So the rest has been, I, you know, you know, then I left that journey and the Lord now.
So, so he got healed.
He got, he got, he got, when you got born again, when you got born again.
Yes.
No man led you into, so based on your story.
Okay, best.
I grew up around church.
You know, church.
So you grew up under the system like, like somewhere.
Yes, I grew up.
Yes.
I grew up in the system.
We're going to get back to that story.
Thank you.
Briefly, tell us how did you get born again?
How do you introduce to God?
How did I get born again?
I think every man has a time they make that step.
I can't say grew up in a, well, I have a Christian name.
My parents have a Christian Christian names and stuff like that.
But they were not born again.
They were just the institutional and we didn't really go to church.
I actually used to mock preachers.
I used to debut as a stand-up comedian at home.
So once in a while I used to mock.
So being born again was very far from me, very, very far.
Interestingly, when I was growing up, I, I'll say I somehow had interesting things that
are spiritual or maybe because there was a part of what spirituality that was mystical.
So I remember in primary because I wanted to always leave school and go forward.
I went and joined the information class for Catholics, but as a Catholic,
my mother didn't come on the day of the party.
So I went and joined the one of Anglicans because institutional, but it's not Wayne.
So first forward, I got that was primary.
I got to secondary.
I, I had this desire.
I loved Christianity.
I remember one specific time.
But as in born again, one specific time I, we supported soccer and I lost my voice.
So went to church and stand.
I could not sing.
Very annoyed.
Just love being around church and stuff like that.
I didn't know why.
Then I got to that.
That was in my high school.
Then I go to a level.
I go to Catholic school.
And in there, I somehow always felt like he's going to reach a time because I had my elder brother was born again.
He's going to reach a time and you're actually going to become born again.
Like there was just something in me that always told me.
And in this school, I was very stable.
Like went through high school, being expelled and stuff like that.
So one day I remember I had come for third time, senior six.
And that was on my bed.
It was a Saturday afternoon.
And I've just felt a voice in my heart that's on.
Now it's time to get born again.
Profits and apostles can have experiences.
I nailed down.
I gave my life to God.
And we had a fellowship that used to fellowship illegally, something like that.
So I nailed down, gave my life to Christ.
I told guys again, I was very stable.
When I told them I've given my life to Christ, it became like a news.
But I was too determined that when I did so, I changed from being gray.
Actually from black to white.
Like there are like no man changes like that.
But some of the things that really convicted me.
That week I nailed on my bed.
I go attend.
If I even attended the illegal born again fellowship in Namiliango.
I'm told, okay, I can't tell my friends who are born again.
You know what you guys, I'm going to join and stuff like that.
So to give my life to Christ.
They tell me, okay, we meet next weekend.
I try to read the Bible.
Things are not whatever.
But I knew it was time for me to.
And I knew I'd given my life to Christ.
So go for morning prayers.
Because those are things that really grounded me.
Morning prayers.
Just a week after I remember people are praying.
Some speaking in tongues, whatever.
The room was dark.
It was another main hall the elevos used to do.
These single sex schools have a very big distinction between a level and whatever.
So we had our main hall.
I was seated on the table.
I was supporting my butt on the table.
So to speak.
The guys were praying and I told God, man.
Maybe I've mistaken myself for these things.
If you're really real, you understand, you prove it now.
And me I will chuckle and chuckle all the way.
Going to these things wholeheartedly.
So while the guys were praying and stuff like that.
Some were worshiping and stuff like that.
All of a sudden, at that instant, I heard a sound.
That entered.
I can't say it was physical or something.
But it was loud.
Boom.
It just entered the room from above.
After I made that brandy.
Boom.
And then all the chairs, the place began vibrating.
I began to see chairs vibrate from the ground.
Trying to be suspended in there.
And even the table was on.
Began to be suspended.
You man.
Were in a room.
So when that hit, of course, people failed their side.
We were speaking in tongues and stuff like that.
And stuff like that.
But I really wanted God to prove to me.
So as I began to be suspended in there,
while the table was on, began to be suspended.
I told God, now I accept it.
This thing of you entered in it.
So first forward, it was around,
I think it was around the end of September.
October was coming.
My birthday is in October.
Because of what I had seen that first week,
I just began fasting.
First day, like one month.
Of course, we didn't have fellowship.
I just began reading the Bible by myself.
Began fasting.
People are like, you don't get born again like this.
And of course, for me, it began like that.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that whatever my journey went to come,
but basically that's how I came to God.
Maki.
I know you have to top that.
You have to top that.
Briefly.
That's amazing.
Just your born again experience.
That's amazing.
My born again experience in relation to what you asked.
Yes.
Me, we were raised in the system.
And I say we as a family.
Okay.
I come from a Christian family background.
My mother actually raised this in church.
So right from Sunday school,
all the way through to, you know,
scripture union and serving as a chairperson for,
you know, the youth at church.
That was my life.
Up until I reached my senior one is when I decided because when,
when I was a kid, obviously at some point,
I think I gave my life to Christ, but not consciously.
So in senior one,
I decided to make that decision consciously,
you know, to get born again.
And that's the one that I want to believe for me was the turning point
because then just one year after that is when I stumbled into
my call.
Okay.
And later on found my gifting as well.
And for me, it was the beat of,
I was always fascinated by Solomon and his wisdom.
Okay.
But the particular point that caught my attention was when he
asked for wisdom.
I was like, that took wisdom in itself to ask for wisdom.
You understand?
Anyone else could have asked for anything.
So ever since then I was like, you know what?
I want wisdom greater than Solomon's wisdom.
Now I didn't understand by then that I was inclined towards the teaching,
you know, in the fivefold towards the teaching anointing.
And, but later on, I started to notice that wherever I went,
whatever I did, I always found myself in a place of leadership.
Wherever I went, for some reason, I would join a group,
I'd just come and sit among people.
For some reason, I'd always be identified as a leader.
And people always wanted to hear my opinion on a subject or something like that.
Now, when I combined my love for wisdom, intelligence, knowledge,
and the whole bit of leadership, first forward, that's when I understood,
okay, this is where my call and gifting is.
So the gifting in teaching, okay, but the particular call is in changing
the minds of men, shifting paradigms, you understand?
Which is basically a word that you used earlier on.
For me, it's the whole bit of come up here.
Okay, can we change your mind to see things the way God sees them?
All right.
And so for me, that was the journey and how it ended up in the call
and the anointing and where we are now.
You know, I've told the story over and over.
I got born again in my S1.
That's a while back.
I was playing in class.
I ended up next to two boys.
And they asked me if I wanted to get born again.
And I didn't know what that meant, but because I didn't want to turn them down.
I didn't want them to feel bad.
They led me in a prayer.
I gave my life to Christ.
One week later, I was in fellowship and preaching for the first time.
So they saw the seed.
And you see, all of us here have been made by something, by someone.
We all have a story.
If we could talk, we could talk forever.
But I want us to pinpoint things that I feel will bless some people there.
For example, I believe all of us read books.
I'm a reader by virtue of my teaching action.
I'm a person who loves to read.
Are there what book, if you could point out one book that you think, guys,
I read this book, you guys need to read this book.
It will build you.
It played a vital role in my life.
What book would that be?
Yes, I have.
Thank you very much.
I've read a couple of books.
The book that has stood out mostly, they are two, they are, they are majorly two books.
One is testing the powers of the ages to come by a prophet, you know, Elvis Mbonye.
And then the other one that, you know, that's teared up, you know, the anointing, you know,
of healing was written by a man called, you know, T. L. Osborne called how to receive a miracle.
How to receive miracle healing.
Okay.
That's, that's by T. L. Osborne.
Yes.
All right.
What about you?
Doctor.
Personally, I can't say book.
Don't, don't get me wrong.
It's been authors.
Authors.
Okay.
Two particular authors.
The first.
Okay.
I remember one book that changed me a lot.
It's No More Christian Life by Watch Money.
Oh, yeah.
But particularly, particularly, I think one person, I can't even read a lot of his books.
I read one introduction and I feel it fires me at the next level.
But read a bit of books.
It's Watch Money.
And then I think also when I discovered some things about myself, coding and stuff like
that, I would instruct him to read Kennedy Hagen.
Okay.
So I read a lot of Kennedy Hagen.
Yes.
Student of Kennedy Hagen.
Yes.
I read a lot of Kennedy Hagen.
And then Watch Money.
Basically.
Wow.
The many.
Clearly.
I think I'm also in issues.
I love to read.
So there's so many.
But I think if there's someone I could pinpoint, it would be Jack Canfield, the author of Success
Principles.
Right.
Okay.
And this is for me because of the action that I have in line with business and shifting
mindsets and stuff like that.
So it would have to be Jack Canfield.
You know, you know, the Bible says go back to the ancient parts.
And the reason why I asked for the books is because every man was trying to build a place
who's trying to get to a particular place in their call.
One of the ways they can find stepping stones is by looking back at people who have actually
done it.
Now, we understand that God's moves.
God has new moves.
Every age is a new age.
There are dispensations and so on and so forth.
But the Bible says all these things were written for example.
Okay.
So there are people we can look back at.
I'll give you an example.
So because I started ministry a couple.
I'm now in my eighth year in terms of full-time ministry.
But I've been in church for years.
I was in the Anglican church.
So I got literally, I grew up spiritually from a system, an Anglican system.
Now it had its advantages.
I believe discipleship is very, very important.
The church that I was in, discipleship was important, laying the foundations of doctrine
and understanding the Word of God and building a prayer life and all that.
And so even as I go, there are books that I read that I think are very fundamental.
One is a book by a guy called Oswald J. Smith.
It's called We Need Revival.
Oh.
I'll ask if you have time, just read that book.
If We Need Revival by Oswald J. Smith.
Another is A.W.
Tosa, one of my all-time favorites.
He has so many books but one is called Knowledge of the Holy.
God's pursuit of God.
Okay.
Pursuit of God as well.
But I love Knowledge of the Holy because it brought out God to me in a very peculiar
way.
I read some of these guys might not touch, but those two made a role.
Now they are men of God in this current time that have been tried and tested.
They've been around for a while.
I would encourage you guys, and I know I'm breaking the rule of one book, but I just
want to encourage you guys, if you could read, there's a book by David Oyodepo called
Understanding Financial Prosperity.
That book is about 400 pages.
Yes.
All right.
But only about 30 pages are on giving.
Keep going, keep going.
Only about the small number of the pages.
That's this big on giving.
And that book broke my understanding of finances within the confines of ministry.
And you see, people could say that, you know, there are deeper revelations concerning finances
and so on and so forth, but it's the richest pastor documented, okay, they are undocumented,
but richest pastor documented, and he has underwrite to be listened to, just like Paul
Yeongi Cho.
If you want to grow a ministry, if you want to grow a church growth, I remember I was
listening to a thing of his, an interview, and they asked him, how did you grow?
Because he had over one million people in his church.
Where was he based?
South Korea.
He passed away, went to glory.
But his answer was this, a church cannot grow without fasting and prayer.
Now there are people trying to grow ministries through Facebook, through social media, through
pass it around, tell people.
You can argue with him, but until you have over one million, you don't have much, you
guys can feel into that because I'm trying to show you the bricks that laid a foundation
for my ministry, okay, because I'm a reader.
And I also understood that, and I'm going to ask you this, along with the books that
we've read that have built us, there are sounds now.
You're going to tell me.
So the Bible says there are many voices that have gone out throughout the world and none
without significance, okay?
Every person, pulpit minister or not, has a sound that opens up the spirit realm to them.
What is yours?
They are quite a distinctive facets of sound that really opens me up in different dimensions.
As I just love the book that you've just talked about, Understanding, that's actually one
of the books that the Lord led me to go and buy.
I think it was in 2019, oh my God.
Understanding financial prosperity, and then from there, quite a number.
Now, Araba, we must define realms here, now realms of financial, yes, I was talking about
sounds.
So how have we got to realms?
Now sounds as are you into different realms.
Okay, all right, okay, go ahead.
Yes, because a particular frequency will call you to a particular energy, call you to a
particular vibration or something.
Now when you talk about growth, when you talk about healing, when you talk about church
growth, all those are realms, but it still looks like ministry, but now that's ministry
in all the way to different dimensions.
So at the particular, the most amazing thing that really got me attracted was actually
into the area of healing more.
But when I read that book of T. L. Osborn, oh my God, I could read one sentence the whole
day.
I read a sentence, I read a sentence, I read a sentence, I read a sentence, so you know,
my room and so I think, but you're going to really run, why don't you read other things?
Now for them, they couldn't feel, but that book opened me up to, you know, to certain
things.
Okay, so you're talking about sound from, you're talking about frequencies, something
that you picked that has opened up a realm.
What about in terms of music?
In terms of music, the music that I really enjoy is mostly not the music that we play
today, it is music that has been, you know, the hems, you know, those hems.
Do you have a favorite one?
Yes, I have a favorite one.
Which one?
What is that faithfulness?
Oh, okay.
You know, blessed as sure is, you know, quite a number of them.
Now, in music, I discovered that Benhin worship had something to do with me, that when you
even just play that music, I will start, I will start praying and I will non-stop.
So I discovered that if I wanted to commune with God, that type of worship, you know,
that I could play is that, and I could go on and pray for hours.
So is that still the same today?
It is the same today.
Okay.
It is the same today.
What about you?
What's the sound?
Before I tell you my sound, let me just run scripture up there, because I love scriptures.
Just to emphasize the concept of you can't do away with collecting, some people call
it collecting bones, like Elisha's bones were in the tube, with anointing there, like you
collect from that and it's synonymous to books, men are dead, but we still have something
we can contact.
Take from them.
Yes.
So there is a scripture in Job 8, 7 to 11 says, Though thy beginning was small, yet thy
latter end shall greatly increase.
For inquire I pray thee of the former age, and prepare thyself to search of their fathers.
For we are, but of yesterday, and know nothing, but our days upon the earth are a shadow.
Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee and utter words out of their heart?
Can a rush grow without a mire?
Can a flag grow without water?
I think you know that scripture in Job shows us that there are patterns, there is nothing.
It's just different manifestations that we see of what books are very important, books
and stardings, so many things that come from it.
Nowadays people, if you're not good at reading, they're audio books.
Yes.
They are good.
Okay.
I'm still emphasizing.
Okay.
Unless you're blind.
Please read a book.
Because no, the thing is this, you see, when it comes to studying, Rabbi, Bible says study
show thyself approved.
That's approved.
You see, God does not just use man studying, does not just use studying for a man to gather
knowledge.
But you see, studying is also one of the ways you break the flesh.
That deligency, that determination is part of training for God.
You understand?
That's why you realize that as you grow in God, I'll give you a scenario.
The times I used to just read my Bible.
And then now God comes and tells you, read this.
But you feel being late, read another thing, you understand?
It goes beyond just gathering knowledge, because that's what discipleship is.
It is not just so much of continuing, but continuing the way He has told you.
You understand?
Like I said, Timothy was a disciple of Paul.
So when Timothy was studying Paul and the works of Paul and stuff like that, Paul would
make sure that he's not just imparting knowledge, he said, take care of also the man of man
you've learned from, you understand?
Meaning there are instructions that would give him that.
Maybe we're not pleasant.
Maybe there are things Jesus has told disciples that are not pleasant, you understand?
So that's why I emphasized that you can start with what is convenient for you, but as you
grow in God, that's why you realize, let me just say this, Paul writes to the Corinthian
Church, he says, Paul and Apostle by will of God.
When he was writing to Timothy, someone mature, he says by commandment.
So you understand that as you grow in God, it goes beyond convenient.
I have to put this out there.
I can do another book.
I can't know you.
You do what the Lord tells you to do anyway.
My sound rabbi.
I have to do this.
But the reason why it's feeding in is because every man has their vibe.
Thank God that the people have invited here are readers.
I would have loved to hear the perspective of a person who doesn't read because at least
you have to read the Bible.
But then you see, we're going to get back to him.
Actually, the Lord can never use a person who does not read.
So if a person is out there and they are not readers, then they are not usable as far
as the standards of God are concerned.
You know, rabbi, differentiate the calling and how a man become usable of God.
You must define those lines.
A calling is to get your attention to something.
Is to get your attention.
You talked about somewhere.
Yes.
The Lord was looking for his attention.
Can I have your attention?
Right.
Can I have your attention?
Yes.
So now, so, you know, the prophet tells him now the third time he comes, say, here I am.
Here I what?
What?
What does that one mean?
Now, that is an answer to responsibility.
So if the Lord is going to use a man, actually, I never wanted to read naturally.
I liked, you know, I liked someone telling me stories.
But now, do you remember the, you know, those old books called the English Nile Course?
I only read where the picture was.
I'm sure that many people can relate.
Many people.
So, but now when the call of God came upon me, I discovered that I have an interest.
Actually, I can read a book.
I can read a book and read a book and never get tired of it.
Read a book and every time I read it, I see something new.
Ah, every time I read it, I say, I want to do this.
I want to do that.
Now, actually, now we talk about Daniel and we have, and we have, and we have the anointing
of Daniel here through, you know, Rabbi.
That is an ancient, an ancient whatever.
God is for one of God.
So, yeah, I understood.
OK, Daniel now chapter, Daniel chapter nine, verses two.
Imagine if Daniel didn't read, we would not have had the children of Israel come back
after he says, in the first year of his reign, you know, I, Daniel, understood by the books
by the what?
By the books, a way of the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah the prophet that he would
accomplish 70 years in the desolation of Jerusalem.
Now, imagine people had access to, to Jeremiah's material, but none of them got a significant
instruction apart from Daniel.
And you know, you know, also because we're coming back to, to Dr. Paul says, he's writing
and he says, bring my patchmates and my book.
Yeah.
So, even in prison, reading never came to a standstill.
Go ahead.
I, OK, I, I want to, to broaden it a bit, then I tell you myself, one, OK, I know some
ones that I can't read.
I, I, I, OK, I learned that you see, for example, when the Lord says, seek me, he didn't say,
seek me through reading the Bible.
Something I've learned from Rabbi that one, it's going to take, like, for example, if
we talk about reading me, I love that scripture says study, didn't say study the Bible, you
understand.
There are so many things God puts out there for you to study.
And actually, there are so many things we're supposed to read.
You're supposed to read.
You can read a man.
And that's what I wanted to say.
That's what I wanted to say.
I wanted to say.
Yes, that's what I wanted to say.
You understand?
As a Christian, part of your growth is you're going to learn the things that God puts before
you to study.
I mean, God put things before Jeremiah and says, look, what do you see?
I say, what do you see?
You understand?
So they go beyond books because there are those who have read books and still just because
they could not study men.
I mean, the Pharisees read books, but because they could not study Jesus, they missed it.
You know, annoying things need to be studied.
That's what I'm trying to point to.
I'm knowing things.
I understand.
I will say everything.
For someone starting out, you can begin with what is convenient to you and not your book.
Yes.
Because that's what God does.
He will come to you like Moses, where the bush is burning.
Why always keep the cattle?
Then keep drawing you slowly by slowly.
So I don't want to say that because you're doing and not your book, you're doing the wrong
thing.
Do it.
But if you see the higher levels, but as the Lord continues to bend you and says, now
watch that.
I don't like someone's.
I struggle listening to someone's, but I've come to understand that there are things I
cannot get.
But let's go with the flow.
Let's go with the flow.
I like this flow.
Let's go with the flow because you will still guess your sound just my sound is I like
chance.
If I discovered chance, I was doing to instrumentals.
Then when I found chance, I realized I love instrumentals.
Not witchcraft chance.
Spiritual chance.
The thing is this.
Our sounds are wired to us all, rabbi.
Yes.
If you're drawn to spiritual chance and you're born again, but if you're not born again,
you'll be drawn to chance that are not spiritual because for me, I know sound is wired to tuning
of it.
Like Enya.
I know that sound tuning of this also.
For me, I love chance.
Just to clarify, we think Enya does not fall in the divine spirit, right?
That's McLean.
Just before someone says you mentioned Enya, okay, nice.
I like the diversity in the answering of the question of sound because when you mentioned
the part of reading, I was actually thinking about the whole bit of trying to elaborate
on reading is not just reading a book.
And I'm glad that you mentioned that you can actually read people.
And then again, you said something which is scriptural, okay?
He says, look and see, okay?
Look, what do you see?
Looking and seeing are two different things.
The same way as reading and studying are two different things.
So you can read, but the revelation is not going to come from just reading.
The thing with the reading bit is it will open portals.
It opens doors.
It takes you somewhere.
This is now when you are studying.
You're trying to figure out more of what you're just seeing.
It's the same thing with when you study a man.
It's not just looking at the man and saying, oh, wow, nice.
There's something you're trying to figure out, you know?
So I'm glad that we actually opened that up.
Now, for me, the question of sound, I'll answer it from two forms.
Sound in terms of music and in terms of a voice, okay?
For me, music, I'm all like you as well.
It's instrumental.
But I prefer strings, but specifically harp music, okay?
Sometimes I can do piano, but that's really it, instrumental.
And anyone who knows me knows, I always have that around me.
And the reason is because it helps me with my call and gifting, because even the jobs
that I've had, where I've worked, because I'm in the field of business.
So everywhere where I've worked, it was literally at a business.
It's not civil work or government work or something like that.
So my responsibility is to come up with ideas to literally build a concept from nothing.
So someone just shows up and they just give you one statement and you need to build something
out of that.
Okay?
Now, to operate in that, you need wisdom.
And so for me, the way to keep myself open and always picking ideas from the spirit realm
is just to keep that sound there.
That even when I'm not listening to it physically, because I listen to it so much, I can still
hear it in my spirit, you know, like flowing.
So I find it very, very easy to come up with ideas and stuff like that.
So that's for the music.
When it comes to the voice, I think the person I would easily point out for me who is like
a mentor as well is the late Dr. Miles Monroe, okay?
And when I see him, I see him in the lineage of another man of God who I love to believe
and also in his line is Daniel, okay?
When you see these men, they were called to leadership, they were called to mentorship,
they were called to teaching, but it was to a specific group of people.
It's not just teaching anyone, it's not just mentoring anyone, it was for leaders, okay?
It was to deal with governments and government officials and authorities and stuff like that.
And so for me, that's the voice and the music in terms of sound.
You know, we live in a generation where a man, I'm meeting a lot of people who, their
Bible is what their man of God is saying.
Can we touch that?
Yeah, that's unfortunate.
This is where the place of study comes in.
Because God can work through a man of God, okay?
That man of God does not replace God in your life.
Let's be clear.
Because we all have people we listen to, we look to.
There is a personal unique journey that God has prepared for us.
Every person must have the capacity to work with God as an individual.
As an individual.
We are in a very, it's a lazy generation and I'm glad we don't fall.
Let me just add something, I know someone out there could be wondering, I also love
to think why is he asking a certain question about what's our specific sound.
I believe what he's trying to mean is that on the journey of someone growing to find
where they fall in God and stuff like that, you're going to study many things and you're
also going to study yourself, you understand yourself, what triggers you.
Because I can't know what triggers me if I have not understood.
So even God, that's why you realize this gentleman in the Bible asks, what is man that
are mindful of?
You realize that one of the things is that as you grow in God, the first person he reveals
to you is your person, Christ, with your identity and uniqueness.
Now when you understand your own idea, because you see Adam first understood himself, understand
for him to become fully operational even in the garden and the assignments of God and
stuff like that.
So it's when he asks about what stimulates us and stuff like that, it means that at the
end of the day when one is listening and stuff like that, studying is diverse and you are
also going to ask God to reveal yourself to you.
Because you know, Apostle, you and I are pulpit ministers, okay?
Yes.
I started one and we're going to discuss because what I was explaining is that we live in a
generation where a lot of people drink directly from the man of God, which is okay, but that's
not all there is, okay?
There are things that God will keep for you as an individual and hide it in a secret place
and your secret place, okay?
But he will expect you to seek him, to know him from a personal perspective.
Do you, and I'm going to ask you so because you guys have attended ministry and do you
feel the challenge that I do sometimes where you walk in and you've ministered a word and
after a couple of months you realize this never hit home and when you repeat what you
said a couple of months before, someone can walk up to you and say, I've never heard that
before and yet you ministered the same word.
Has it happened to you, does it feel like?
It has actually happened to every minister out there and it has happened to me and actually
many times that I, you know, there's something that the Lord instructs you to talk about
and to repeat and to repeat and to repeat and to repeat to His people.
So I realize actually, I think there were like four like, you know, revelational series
or something that we did and I went, I told people, we actually even wrote, you know,
we even made a newsletter out of that and we wrote it.
So I think like a couple of months, like six months later, I ministered along those same
lines and now afterward someone came to me and said, you were ministering directly to
me.
And you're thinking, I gave this thing six months ago.
Yes.
Now, actually now that's also something I've discovered with the Lord that are concerning
certain things that build our lives.
It is not burdensome to the Holy Spirit to always repeat remind us.
Remind us, okay.
The Bible says you bring certain things to your remembrance.
Your hour remembers at that particular time.
So I've actually discovered that the Lord can give a man of God a message that is going
particularly to one person.
One person.
I've seen that.
In a congregation of like 10,000.
In a congregation of like 10,000, but anyway, I've discovered that and even as God trusts
you, you know, the lives of men, you realize that as you continue, as you continue on the
journey of sowing the word, you realize that people have different abilities to manifest
that that has been ministered to them.
I've gotten to know that out of let's say 20 people, our role is have one person that
will come with a specific, with a specific like a hundred fold of that, that ministration.
Yes.
Of that ministration.
And, and at first it's really used to, you know, to, to disturb me a lot.
He said, but I have, I've, I've, I've labored, I've prepared, I've done this, but why is
it that your people take long to, to take, to pick certain things and he told me, welcome
to the journey.
But you know, let me tell you, let me tell you something, something, the wisdom, some
of the nuggets that the Lord has shown me with time.
You know, there's a challenge as a minister when you're going to get on a pulpit, or if
you're going to deliver something to prepare.
Okay.
Now you can prepare the different kinds of preparation.
Some people's preparation is you come with knots.
Okay.
Another person's preparation is themselves.
Okay.
There are different kinds of preparation.
Now I've learned with time that as a minister, you should get to a place where you pick the
spirit's agenda with a moment.
That thing is so important because there are times in the past where I've struggled, I've
got powerful revelations and in the middle of the ministration, the move of God hits.
And the challenge as a minister would be, but I have this revelation that I need you
guys to know.
And so you will try to finish the message.
So you can also tap into this one.
Yes, you can tap into it.
But you see the move of God, God can interject.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's why it's always important more than preparing the message, prepare the messenger.
It's so important.
And some of the men of God that I know who have worked with the spirit of God have learned
to work into administration by action.
Okay.
By action.
That's why, you know, some of the things that I do, there's a person who walked up to me
and told me, when you minister, you touch this, then you leave it, you touch this, then you
leave this, you touch this.
And in that moment, 16 people can work up to you and say, when you said this, it means
that.
And that's why it's good to be studied.
Because I will listen to the wisdom of God through healing.
I'll go read something about starting a business.
And so my examples are not coming from a place of ignorance.
The annoying thing has touched the knowledge that I've built and been able to minister
in that moment to people.
But it's very important to know when you should stop and allow the spirit of God.
Spirit of God, whatever.
Yeah.
It's something every man of God learns at a specific time.
And you see, for me, when I learned that, anyway, the first person who mentored me was
at the Miracle Center, the philosopher, Pastor Robert.
Most especially those days, you do so much prayer and stuff like that was that the Lord
gave you the action.
But of course, like Rabbi says, the Lord giving action does not mean you don't prepare.
Yes.
So I had to put it.
You understand it.
It does not mean you don't prepare.
Bible, when you look at the way Luke is written in an amplified version, it says having understood
both your fillers, I write to you concerning something like that.
I think Jesus.
Yeah, Jesus.
Both to do and writing.
No, that's acts.
There's the way he writes the book of Luke himself.
He says having had a perfect understanding of everything from the very first to the last.
You see, he read, he prepared and got a perfect understanding.
And when he's writing the scriptures, it's action.
You understand.
So he's equipped enough, like the scripture says, when you read the word of God, you're
totally equipped for every good work.
He's equipped to communicate.
And I love what the scripture says in our book of Acts.
It says that and everyone got according to need.
And I believe at the end of the day, that's the place of the person who's giving the
ministration to the people who are hearing and stuff like that.
Yeah, but I personally learned that profite in what you're doing.
It's only profitable because it was built done by God.
So it is something you learn along the way.
You can have a lot of revelation.
You can preach it.
You strip of the spirit.
Then you'll wake up one day.
I remember how I learned this very, very, very well to prepare for messages and stuff like
that.
And one time the preparation go took me to us, man, this just gandu laundry.
You understand.
And in laundry, we began having conversation.
Of course, it's looking conversation.
And then I go for fellowship after you understand.
I went very few minutes to the administration.
But the amount of power that I saw demonstrated the prophetic and so many things was way
beyond even what I had packaged and stuck to the script.
You understand.
So I learned early that it's always so sometimes you can just come be around with the wind.
But as you grow in this thing, sometimes when you don't have the action yet, when you get
on the pulpit to minister, you can actually, by reason of what you're saying, get to know
the need of the people.
Every man of God knows when every man of God knows when, you know, the Bible talks about
gold, silver, and that gold, silver would he stable has to do with how much of you was
present during the administration.
And gold is when the spirit of God.
Actually, now, you know, all those things have their places, a place of preparation,
a place of study, a place of prayer.
But more importantly, what makes those things to come off with the anointing is the presence
of God on them.
I have had like, I can't even count how many times I say, I'm going to prepare.
I have this message.
I'm going and when you reach, you know, to open your mouth.
And you wonder, man, I said, now this one year.
I've learned, like, for us to have a ministry that is going to be that, that, you know, that
ministers, a dispensation of the flow of the spirit of God, then we must be dependent
on, on the spirit of God.
That's, that's, you have something to add to it.
Yes, yes, yes, to that.
And also what he was saying when he said the Lord told him, let's go do laundry.
I like that because I have my story with discovering my, my call.
Okay.
In terms of mentorship, which comes with inspiration as well, also came that way.
And I think I've shared this with you where I said, I was asking the Lord and I was saying,
I need to understand my call.
And the reason why I'm bringing that up is because it has to do with what you mentioned
again, in terms of when you come and deliver a message and it feels like people didn't
get it.
And then you have to come back and the, and it's just as if people are not getting it,
you know.
So, but for me, the thing was, at some point, the Lord just told me, just be you.
I said, what kind of call is that, man?
What kind of ministry is that?
Just be you.
Okay.
But it took self-study for me to understand where I was and what it was that I was doing
that he said, just be that, just do that.
I love excellence.
Okay.
So for me, that cuts across with everything I'm doing.
Okay.
And so that's what he was saying.
Later on, I understood that because of that, it's actually what would draw men, what would
draw people to come and want to speak with you and associate with you and pick your wisdom
and mind on certain things, you know, all the way up to the car.
And I think I shared this with Robert.
I told him, even the car, I don't drive my car out when it's dirty, it doesn't matter
where I am.
Why?
Because for me, the thing is always my conviction and the belief is always the same.
Like someone who is watching, you just never know who you're inspiring or who you're ministering
to.
So the day that you decide to step out, when you're not organized, you've not prepared
yourself well, could just be the day when the person you're supposed to minister to,
okay, is watching.
So the story I usually like to share with people is I say, imagine a situation where
I'm always saying, this apostle always is sharp.
I like the way, you know, he handles himself and he delivers the message and just carries
himself.
Okay.
Let's, let's use that.
And then I invite someone who has never seen you, has never heard about you, and I've told
them so much about you.
And I say, you know what, just stand by this roadside and wait and see the man I've been
telling you about.
And this person is so excited.
Now, you know, I'm going with this.
And that one time, for some reason, because you did not listen to the spirit of God or
you were not attuned to that and you forgot for some reason that you were a minister,
you said, you know what, I'm just going here to the supermarket and you put on your shorts,
your vest and your slippers and you walked out.
And for you, that was comfortable.
I want you to imagine what you've just done to the person who came.
You get what I'm saying?
So for me, that's, and that's the beat of being able to have, to know yourself in line
with what God has put on you and where he has called you.
Now just to go to the beat of when people can come and there's a someone and it still
feels like they missed it.
I believe it, part of it is because if people have not yet understood their purpose and
their call, they will not see the relevance or they will not attach relevance in terms
of even just paying attention or wanting to understand deeper what is being shared.
Because when you know you have a call and you know you have something, you have a mission,
you're a man on a mission, you do not waste any minute.
When you come, for example, my mindset for coming for fellowships are like this.
In my head, I have a picture, it's like we came into a battle zone.
I have an agenda to take this, our flag of the kingdom and put it to the other side.
Along this way, I'm going to have challenges and whatsoever, okay?
But on this journey, I'm not alone.
God has put, like we've said, all these different people around to help you with that.
So when I come in line with my call, okay, and the mission that I have been given, when
I come and I sit, for example, under someone like Rabbi, I am listening because I know
there is something I'm looking for.
And every time whatever he says, I need to find relevance concerning Michael.
You know, you know, what people need to understand that you see, all of us, we're still on the
path.
The people who have gone ahead of us.
That's why I said we go back to look at the people who have the testimonies they have.
So we're still on our path and we're really testifying about how far God has brought us
and the things we've learned.
But we've all gone through some level of training.
I got, you know, I got the name Rabbi.
It's not something I attached myself.
2012, I went to Israel to study.
Okay?
And I believe till this very day, my dad wanted me to do, believe it or not.
So I have a diploma in small and medium enterprises from Israel.
SMEs.
But just imagine, so I went to study a diploma and this is after I had finished campus, I
had graduated, I had had had my degree and so on.
But the moment I landed there, I knew it was God who had taken me there, it had nothing
to do with the books, you know.
And the people that I interacted with, the mind of God that was opened up to me in that
land, I came back and there's a wisdom beyond my age at that time that I had.
When I would stand on the pulpit, I had an understanding of mysteries.
And so they used to call me, that's how the name started, Rabbi.
Are you on?
Teacher of the word.
So I'm not Jewish, teacher of the word.
But all of us have gone through a sort of training session, I used to, it my desire
was never to start a ministry, never.
I wanted to serve.
So I served in various capacities, we used to go for missions, I would carry machines.
And I was happy with that, we used to dance, we used to dance and we did everything necessary
and all those things were stepping stones to the calling and purpose.
Now I'm going to say this, there are two types of people in every ministry, especially those
who are serving.
As long as you're serving in a ministry, you need to listen to this, there are two types
of people.
There are people who do something as a call and there are those who do it as a point
of contact.
You must distinguish where you fall.
There are people in choirs that are there as a point of contact, it's not their calling.
And so their season there will come to an end and the purpose of it was to be faithful
and open a door to what God wants you to actually do.
Then there are people who are supposed to be in the choir and you thank God for prophetic
ministries.
If a prophetic person moved by the spirit of God, picks you out and you've been in the
choir for 10 years and mentions fashion but doesn't mention you're singing, why do you
go back?
I don't know if you guys understand that because you've just been, the Lord has just revealed
to you your area of focus.
So you're saying just for, it took me minutes, maybe someone, so you're saying there are
people in ministry who, what they're doing is like a point of contact that God will see
their place of faithfulness and open up their call to their call.
So along our journey we have things we will do like, serving tables and stuff like that
and depending on how faithful we are, we are a shadow to the next level.
I believe sometimes there might be many points of contact.
Yes, there are many.
Many?
Many.
For every person there's a test of faithfulness.
A test of faithfulness.
Okay.
And you see now, here's the thing.
That's what you can understand.
And that's why I said, when you, I'm just using an example of a prophetic ministry because
sometimes they're not there.
God can give you a dream or something like that.
But if an action that is prophetic comes and tells you, there's a fashion grace on you.
And you've known it, you've felt it and you've just got your confirmation.
For what reason do you go back?
And he doesn't mention the sinning.
You understand?
For what reason do you go back to fight practicing when they choose the ones they fast the Friday?
Okay.
Let me say something.
Yes.
Let me say something.
This is asking me.
Say something.
And that's a very, I see, I see what you're trying to.
Now that you've gotten that prophecy, what do you do?
What do you do?
Yes.
I see what you're trying to trigger there.
And it's good because it's actually something that at some point I was hoping we would touch
on.
Since we're talking about anointing and callings, okay?
The understanding that every human being, no matter who you are, at some point, unless
I'm mistaken, you have to be inclined towards one of the five.
Five, yes.
Yes.
You understand?
It's something apostolic and prophetic.
Now that means that, and this is what you started with, not every minister of God.
We are all ministers of God in our different capacities.
But some people for some reason believe that to be, let's say, a deep man of God, okay,
you have to be the one who is on a pulpit or close to the pulpit.
Yes.
And that's where the misconception is because it's not that.
And so when you understand that, for example, you've been picked out, you've been told
you're called into fashion, okay?
You stepping away from the choir, away from that pulpit, doesn't take you away from God.
Yeah, it doesn't mean you've left God, eh?
Yes.
What you need to be doing and to answer the question that you're asking, okay, now what
do I do at that point?
This is what I was saying about knowing your call and finding your identity.
And God, you should now be asking, after this, even before that, you should be asking, first
of all, where am I in this five-fold?
Where do I incline?
You understand?
Because once you understand that, even when now the prophetic voice comes and tells you
you're called into fashion, you need to again understand fashion in what sense towards what?
Can we clarify on that?
Because what McLean is saying is not saying that everyone is called a five-fold, eh?
Yes.
There are people who are called to a five-fold, but the saints are inclined to one or a combination
of five-folds.
So, for example, if someone is called to business, they could be inclined to the apostolic.
That means they are forerunners in business, they start something that was not there.
They could be inclined to the prophetic.
For some reason, they're innovative, they see something before it comes, okay?
They could be inclined to the teaching, they're led to teach people how to start businesses
and to be successful.
They could be led to the pastoral, okay?
People who, those are motivational, you can do it, you understand?
Yes.
Okay?
So, you can be inclined, evangelistic, there are people who start businesses for the sake
of spreading the gospel, but they do it within the confines of the business that God has
given them.
So, when you find your place in terms of your call, where is the inclination?
I don't know, Apostle, if you're getting me.
Yes.
I'm getting you.
I thank you very much, Rabbi.
You know, we have to come to a place where we understand that the call has dimensions
and stages in which it progressively unfolds to a man and he walks with it.
Yes.
It doesn't unfold at once.
A quick way to see this is that when a child is born, when you, like your daughter at home,
that daughter has ability to read, but can she read now?
But as she continuously does that, she will progress from one stage to another.
Now also the call unfolds to a man in different, you know, in different stages.
So life is lived in stages.
Process is important.
Yes.
So there is a process through which God takes you through and you talked about diligence,
you talked about faithfulness.
Now let's look about, like David, David was a boy that, and actually the Lord even reminds
him that I picked you from following the sheep.
Can you imagine that?
So there was a, so there was a time when David was following the sheep.
There's a time when he received an anointing.
There's a time that he progressed from there and you see that everything was progressing
moving in that direction for David to fulfill the purpose for which he was born.
And that one took a period of years.
Now just like someone is in the choir, but the Lord must have, you know, probably placed
you in a choir for a reason.
Yes.
That's what I'm calling a point of contact.
Yes.
As a point of contact.
Yes.
But it does not necessarily mean that, actually that's a, now that has been the biggest problem.
People transitioning from one point where they were here in God, to another place where
God wants them to go.
And that's what we're trying to touch now.
Now think about Elijah here.
You're so used to the raven, you're so used to the what?
To the brook.
Now imagine how hard it was for him to go pick out a widow and somehow the widow had
not known.
Now that has, now that, then from there he had to transition.
Now what about the Lord Jesus as I was, you know, himself?
So in his ministry, there were seasons and there were times, there were seasons and what?
And times, now many times actually, even believers have seasons when they are supposed
to be in a certain ministry.
Correct.
That's true.
Go on.
You're now starting.
Okay.
So, so, so let me, let me, let me shift the rudder.
No, no, no.
Hold on.
Let's shift it.
Let's go that direction.
There is, I believe this and you guys will correct me, but back to my experience, that
there are people called to particular anointings, true.
For a season.
Thank you.
Yes.
Okay.
You're going to continue, I just want to, for a season.
I was telling a couple of people and I got it, it's actually the wisdom of this man,
I will quote him, that you cannot deny when a man feeds your spirit.
Oh yeah?
So if you've been somewhere and suddenly another person is feeding your spirit, we know we live
in a generation where guilt, your guilt tripped, as if every man's spirit has its appetite.
Those traditions that men have, and you know, this thing is, you see, this thing is so deadly
Apostle, because you're going to come in, it's so deadly.
For some reason, and I've seen this, oh my God, you know that there can be competition
between ministries.
That's so bad.
And competition between men of God.
And I've found that when two men of God have their issues, whatever their issues are, it
takes wisdom for them not to pass those things on to the congregation.
Correct.
But when that doesn't happen, when they actually pass the morning, the congregation now start
fighting each other over something they do not understand.
I don't know if you get what I'm saying, let me ask you as you talk, one, the question
would be, one, if I belong to this man of God, someone we think they're supposed to
be friends.
I don't think so.
That's true.
Yes.
No, no, there are things once you understand, let me just clarify, and when he's saying
they don't have to be friends, it doesn't mean they have to be enemies, not being your
friend.
I don't know whether Paul was a friend to Peter, you understand?
Yes.
He doesn't know each other.
But he's aware, he's an apostle, they met, they are quintessences, they were ministers.
No, let's even go to Poland, Bonobas.
Poland, Bonobas, at one time, disagree, I had one man preaching and that was the end
of Bonobas.
It was not the end of Bonobas, it still shows us.
Maybe they stayed too long together and they had to leave.
So for me, I think at the end of the day, Rabbi, I remember we talked about this, when
people take out the concept of, well, one, yes, I agree, man can serve in a place for
a time.
And you see, in this complex world, God grooms people differently.
I mean, one time Moses is in the palace under Pharaoh, another time he's with Jethro, another
time he's getting rid of God, and we can't deny he learned from different places.
Jesus himself, I usually say Jesus, there's a time he learned what man had to learn and
also learned from God, was also under his father, he learned Capetrian stuff like that.
Each of us had a place, you understand?
And for me, I will say that whenever you see something like competition, then you know
that a door has been opened for the spirit of the world.
True.
You understand?
For the spirit of, of course, competition was there ever since.
Paul, Apollos, but when Paul addresses this, he says, it's immaturity at the end of the
day.
Some say this.
You see, you can, once a man is full and satisfied in the identity in God, come on man, come
on.
There is no door.
Because the Bible says you have not received the spirit of the world, but you have received
the spirit of God to know the things that you have freely received.
So the spirit of God always reveals to you what you have.
There is nothing insufficient.
The day Eve invited Satan, oh, the day Satan entered into that proximity of the garden,
is the day they began thinking they lacked something.
And once you begin to feel deficient, you will compete.
Have you ever felt that thing?
Because we're going to bring back Apollos, right?
I know we stopped him halfway, but you're going to have to give us that.
Have you ever felt, you know, I've had people that I listened to, I started out as a believer
listening to Peristone, okay?
But there's a point in my life, even now, let's say, if I try to go back and listen to Peristone,
the feeling I used to get, I don't get it.
It's not the same, yes.
It doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the man of God.
Correct.
It's just that his season in my life came to an end.
But if you checked my spirit, you'd find the landmarks.
A deposit of him.
A deposit of the man's spirit in me.
Apollos, you're talking about seasons, living time.
Like for example, you know, on my journey, working with the Lord, the Lord led me to
a particular ministry, very powerful ministry.
And I started getting a discomfort in my spirit, known as disliking, but I discovered that
I was supposed to be somewhere, basing on, you know, on the commitment I had, you know,
on my diligence, you know, things like that.
But to be specific, I was sowing, I was sowing and at that time what I was sowing was really
big.
So one day I asked the Lord, Lord, why is it that I am sowing in this place and I am
not seeing the necessary results that I'm supposed to receive?
Is it, am I doing it the right way?
What is the problem?
What is it?
When I slept, I had a dream.
And in the dream I was in that place and the man of God at that time now, what he was putting
on looked like rugs and everything really.
So it was like the season for that has come to an end.
And yet there are people in his ministry who are finding him relevant.
What I mean is this now, actually now that's where people now get it wrong.
After they have seen the dream, they want to convince everyone else that the guy is off.
The guy is not actually off, but the season for which you are supposed to be in that place
came to an end.
Actually we also need, you need a discerning of spirits.
Yes, you need to discerning.
So that can also be?
You need to, now actually, now there's a time when people can, you can instruct someone
to do something in the ministry, rabbi, in your ministry, you tell them now, I want you
to do A, B, C, D, E, F, G and when a person does not do E, A, when they don't follow instruction,
they take on now the spirit that now the Lord has instructed me to leave.
You get the point.
So I was not in any of that place.
But understanding transitions, someone must completely rely on the spirit of God.
There are signs.
There are signs that are necessary to guide a person.
There's a way to enter ministries and to decide which ministry you're supposed to be in.
And there's also a way to leave.
People are very, it's very easy for them to enter a ministry.
Leaving is, it always has its own complexities.
People live in various ways.
There's one that you mentioned.
There's some people who always have, they will have a particular issue with the man of God.
It will be very personal.
Okay.
I've had people leave my ministry.
Now the way I set it up, the way the Lord gave me a revelation was I stand by a principle.
They're with the exception of a handful of people, by handful, I mean, like maybe three or four.
I as a minister, I've never told someone come to my ministry.
I've always, you know, the Bible says, and God added unto their number.
Okay.
I've never told someone like that.
And because you came in liberty, you can live at liberty.
At liberty.
I won't fight you.
However, I would advise people who are in service in a ministry.
The way they live is different from a normal congregant.
Yes, yes.
Well, I think it's to whom much is given, much is required.
Come on, man.
There is a responsibility because you've taken, you've become a pillar of assault in that ministry.
So you can't just disappear.
Wake up a day and then you say, no.
You might have come with liberty, but you took on a responsibility and you're going to be held accountable.
So how you live is, is, is important.
That means the man of God must be in no.
He must be.
Either God tells him or you inform him.
Now different men of God respond differently.
Some men take offense.
Okay.
Why are you leaving me?
Where are you going?
That's, that's something for me personally.
I will lay hands on you, ask you where you're going.
If it's somewhere in my mind, I feel it's safe.
I'll say God bless you.
That's a wonderful man of God.
And the Lord will, the same God who brought you, will bring you, will bring someone else too.
To serve in that capacity or something.
Yes.
Actually, for me, I normally have had a couple of people.
Mclean, you're coming after me.
You know, come to me and imagine a person has been serving in this capacity, in the ministry.
And they tell you they are going to leave.
One of the question I ask that is, was there someone that you raised up to do the things that you were doing in that capacity?
Yes, yes.
And if my, and if their answer is no, I would definitely tell them that.
Then what are you doing?
Yeah, you know, then what are you going to do?
God is not a God of vacancies.
Okay, okay, probably there could be wrong, I could be right.
But I don't believe like someone can wake up a day and say they are not going to come and what and, you know, and things like that.
You see, there must be a way someone who is in authority says, okay, now my time here has come to an end.
Now, there are people that are really proud out there, the way they say things like someone has been serving, you know, under you very well.
But the time they feel that they are going to leave, they come up with some weird.
But you know, you know, Mclean, you're going to come in here.
Let's be clear.
When you've been in a ministry for long, you've been there for a reason.
Yes.
If you're leaving, let's say you're living in a bad way.
And why are you going to live in a bad way?
Okay, but let's say you're living in a bad way.
It doesn't mean that everything in the ministry is bad.
You received some good things.
It's the same way.
God does not deny there was still a covering.
Israel got Egypt because they don't mistreat these guys.
You do, you were there, you ate their food and stuff like that.
And then when I just, I like getting the biblical examples, you look at Nehemiah,
he's told by God to go for another assignment.
He has an assignment in the palace.
Well, someone may think it's barbarian or stuff like that, but I think it's example enough.
Very powerful.
Yes, so he presents himself before the king because he has a cabaret and states his matter
and asks for leave.
You understand?
And they ask him, how long are you going to leave out?
How long are you going and all that?
What do you need?
So, so, so I believe it's a two way.
Maki, come in.
I'm going to come in.
Because after you, I want us to touch, because this thing is sent.
I want us to touch the issue of spiritual fatherhood.
Okay.
Go ahead.
I'm going to apologize because at some point I'm going to step on some food here, but I
think this is why some of us in the teaching, it's their responsibilities much bigger.
We started when we started this, you started with the basics.
Okay.
And this is why we're saying you cannot undermine or underrate simply because you have graduated
to another level, the class you've been in.
You understand?
We would not be here if it wasn't for the churches we attended when we were younger.
Some of us personally, I learned fundamentals and certain, I'd call them principles.
That for me, it just doesn't work if it does not fall in line with that because that's
what we were taught.
You understand?
Now, unfortunately, we find ourselves in a place where we are with the grace generation,
where we like to despise the fundamentals.
You understand?
Just because this grace does not mean the 10 commandments are thrown out of the window.
You understand?
The reason why, how God brought me, okay, to a prophetic ministry and to Rabbi's teaching
ministry was I'd gotten to a point where the Anglican church I was attending.
And this I even went and spoke with a youth pastor.
I asked the question was, if we're living in a time after Jesus,
he said, after him, there would be one who would come, who would be the Holy Ghost.
The realm in which a particular generation lived, that was the ministry that was there
at that time, okay?
When John the Baptist came, he didn't talk about the person who was behind.
He talked about what was coming.
After Jesus came, he talked about the Holy Spirit.
So my question was, if we're in the realm where the Holy Spirit is supposed to be and
we're supposed to do greater works than Jesus said he did, why aren't we talking about it
here in church?
Why isn't anyone bringing up that conversation?
There was no clear answer.
And for me, that became an issue, like I was hungering for more of the realm of the spirit
and the understanding of spirit things that at some point I figured, you know what?
I think, yeah, I think that's it for me, you know, and I transitioned and I started to
have my worship sessions and my prayer sessions from home until God led me into another ministry.
The prophetic and that of rabbi as well, where now I found what I'd been looking for.
But it doesn't mean that where you came from exactly, you understand?
So even when people ask me the time that I left, when people would come and ask me about
my story, I would say, my story, my reason, you understand?
Not leaving it vague and making it seem like, no, I said, I was looking for something particular.
And that's what took me out.
Now, long story short, fast forward, if that had not been the case, I would not be having
the privilege of co-hosting the R&D and podcast with rabbi, which also falls in line with
my call, you understand?
So that's one thing I wanted to touch.
But again, I also want to touch the subject of when men in ministry find the need to clash.
I was meeting someone recently and I told them, you see, everybody has a uniqueness
God has deposited in them.
Everybody.
This person I was meeting is an artist, is a musical artist, and I was telling him, and
you just ministered him, you told him, new sound, and I told him, look, everybody has
a distinct thing that God blessed in them, otherwise you would not be on this earth.
So to think that, let's say, for example, me and you are in the same genre of music,
or let's say, me and you are teachers, we're all teaching and whatsoever, for me to start
thinking, okay, that you're going to take away the people God has put under me or assigned
for me to minister, too, okay, that is very, very myopic in terms of thinking.
It's very myopic.
Actually, for me, I tell people, that's an insult to God.
What you're basically saying is God's wisdom was not so sufficient that he literally gave
you guys the same thing, like bits, bits, you understand?
That's why you're struggling for the same.
But you know what people are drawn to?
People are drawn to the light of a person.
That light can't be taken away, okay, by a fellow minister, you understand?
I have my light, you have yours, and people have the boundaries of their habitation according
to scripture, and we extend those boundaries.
So if my boundary is 50 people and yours is 10, okay, and two of your 10, I decide that
they want to join my 50, please understand that because your boundary is 10, the olores
be people to replace the two that left, instead of fighting, you know, okay, quickly, okay.
Quickly.
I believe, you see, like Elijah, they broke right, drink different water, something like
that.
So time reaches where what you've been feeding on, no longer, I mean, we see scriptures over
and over, and then there was famine in the land.
Other people may be eating it as bread, but for you, it's famine, because you're hungering
for something different, so you will choose to depart, and it's a pattern in your life.
In the scripture, it's okay, but rabbi, I'm not speaking out of experience, I was part
of starting ministries and stuff like that.
Those that began small and became big and stuff like that, I saw those things for me,
it's okay.
Someone lives, it's okay.
Others come, it's okay.
Can we touch up finally?
Maki, how many minutes do we have?
Less than 10.
Okay, less than 10.
So I want us to touch, because I want us to touch spiritual fatherhood, but we might not
have time to do that, but I wanted, okay, let me say this categorically, I don't believe
that everyone is supposed to have a spiritual father.
I believe that the pillar of spiritual fatherhood is found within scripture, but it's a choice
that a person can take, and some people, God actually appoints for them.
But when something is supposed to cut across all believers, they are not a believer, they
are not loopholes to eat in the Bible.
So for example, we find prayer in the Old Testament, we find prayer, Jesus spoke about
it, we find prayer in the letters of the apostles, it is a doctrine.
You can't remove it.
You can't say, why should we pray?
You understand?
But spiritual fatherhood, you go back and find that the specific people in the Bible who
did not have fathers, okay, there are people who had mentors, Paul says you have many instruct
mentors, but the fathers are few.
And we live in a generation where there are so many people calling themselves fathers,
but actually the fathers are actually few.
So the rest are masqueraders, okay?
But the thing is this, I've already said this, it is better you don't have a father than
have the wrong one.
Yeah, true, true.
Yeah, also these are hard statements.
How man, you're confirming they didn't have a problem.
It is better you don't have a father than having a wrong one, because you see, the word
father means source, abba, and if this is a wrong person, the wrong fruit is flowing
through you and manifests something, okay?
So I want to, we would have discussed it probably so long.
So what I want is, when we're winding up, I just needed to throw that there, perhaps
another day we'll talk about it, but lessons that we've learned in ministry, okay?
I'm going to start, I'm going to start, then you guys will come through.
But this perhaps will help some ministers out there.
Number one, I've been invited, I've been in ministry for a long time, serving as a minister,
being in leadership in church and so on and so forth.
When you're invited somewhere to minister, and this is a word of wisdom that I got with
time, that the principle should always be, you must decrease as the person you're visited,
you must decrease as they increase.
What that means is that your light should never overtake the light of the person, the
paupit you're standing on, okay?
It's a very important principle.
I've seen men of God go to places where they've been invited, and some literally show off.
And congregants are very impressionable.
They're like, this guy is deeper than my man of God, let me live, let me go with this guy.
The idea of ministry is to shine light on the person who has invited you, okay?
Now, if this is my personal conviction, if you do not know what you're inviting, if you
don't know what I'm bringing to your ministry, and I see you don't know it, I won't go.
You understand?
It's different from those days when we'd say, so the topic is joy, come and minister joy,
then you come.
I'm a carrier of something, and the Bible says he receives a prophet in the name of
the prophet receives a prophet's reward.
So the people must be prepared to know what they're going to receive from the anointing
that is going to step on their paupit.
If I don't see that you can see it in me, I'm not coming.
But secondly, I need my spirit, or our spirits, need to be in harmony in terms of what we minister.
Like for example, I believe in praying in tongues, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There's a time he has back, I was invited someone, a guy says, here, don't start those
praying tongue things, okay?
Now, there I ministered, but I won't go back, you understand?
Because that's a very vital component to me.
It's in scripture, but someone has said this one, when you come here, and if it's a part
of me, there's a part of me that you're hindering, yes.
Then you tell me, don't do this, so I don't go back, okay?
So don't take offense.
When we're invited and we say, please, either it's not a season, or sometimes we don't.
Now, Arrabbi, for me to be in place, to have the honor to receive, to stand on the paupit
where you stand, you know Jesus said the standard, when he told Peter, he said, Peter, son of
Jonah, you know, I think it must be John chapter 20 somewhere.
Do you love me more than this?
So depending on his love for Jesus, then he was given liberty to feed.
So if I am going to stand on Rabbi's, you know, paupit and minister to him, and minister
before, you know, his people, his congregation, do I love Rabbi enough?
That's why you have love ministries.
God bless you.
But you see, man of God, you see man of God, when you're invited somewhere to minister,
you don't sit with that congregation week in, week out, they don't see you, they see
you, they are man of God.
And so when you come, you must have a word that meets the need of the people, not just
having a word.
Yes.
Okay.
Because you've been invited for a particular season to meet a particular point of need.
That's why preparation is extremely important.
I'll let you guys feed in on that, and what you think about it, because you've been invited
in places and you speak to people, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you learn, Rabbi, you learn, you learn.
I preach somewhere one day and assistant pastor called you a cult, no, not called you a cult,
resigned.
Wow.
Resigned.
But you see, back then, there was pride in that when I grew, I realized those are things
you don't do.
Those are things you don't do, you either know what power pitch you go to, or what, because
at the end of the day, we are building, because what happens is like coming and you destroy
the entire foundation of one man, you don't build the whole house, correct?
You let one break on the foundations.
But you've done more damage.
Done more damage, and yet we are called to build it.
So if I am invited anywhere, I am contributing.
First of all, it's important if I'm invited to understand, it's even the companies here,
they ask you what's your mission, to understand what is this man's mission, what is in there,
you also know how you're coming and what you're going to add on, and your responsibility.
And when you're done, even if they gave you an hour, you'll actually realize that I'm
done.
In 30 minutes, I can relinquish.
As we come to a close, it actually becomes, again, more complicated, if I can say.
If the man of God who has invited you is going to come and speak after you, like you go on
before them, and then they have to come and speak after you, like we've agreed, his
congregation knows.
You understand?
We're on a certain trajectory, we're on a certain season.
There is a reason why the man of God has asked you to come and speak to his people.
So you speaking something contrary to what you're saying, it's going to be a complete
mispunch.
You have not helped the ministry of the man of God, because ideally when he comes, it
should just be confirming what you have said, if you were picking from the same source.
And so it's very important, like you're saying, when you prepare, prepare in line with a mission
at hand.
Don't just go with your own things, the things you've crammed, and you feel that is it.
Just as I close, these are my last, and these will be my closing remarks as well.
I learned, and this came up at some point in the discussion, I learned a long time ago
to listen to the voice of God, even when he has brought people to me to speak to.
And I usually tell them, look, it's not like I said, when you say you want to meet me,
I go back and I say, okay, now what will I talk to this person about?
No, I'll wait for you to come.
And as you start to speak, I ask the Holy Spirit to show me what it is we need to address.
And by the grace of God, every time that has happened, the Word was the Word in season
for that season.
And then you become more impactful, you're actually doing what needs to be done, not
just doing it for the sake.
And finally, lessons we've learned, for me, I think it will just be humility.
Humility understanding that the master for us is God.
No human being, no one, no being whatsoever, can ever be bigger than God.
And as such, no man can ever be bigger than God.
So please, let's learn to be humble, regardless of your rank and your authority.
At some point, God is always.
You know, man of God, there's that man, we would have touched, we should have a part
two of this.
I believe so.
We should have a part two of this.
At some point, we'll have a part two.
Now, I realized something.
I made a mistake some point, and I've made many mistakes as a minister.
But there's one mistake that stood out.
I remember one time, and a lot of people come to see me for different issues.
One time, a lady came to see me and had a particular issue, and I gave her an answer
to her issue.
And later, the man of God that she submits to reached out to me very angry, because she
went and said that you gave me this particular advice, but Rabbi has given me this other
advice.
She neglected to say that she had been given.
I don't know if you understand.
Yes, I do understand.
And so the wisdom I've learned with time is I always ask, who's your man of God?
Have you seen him?
What has he said?
I will never go contrary to that.
And if I don't agree with him, at times I would just say, let's pray together so that
what he has said, you know, can minister and God can come through.
And these things cause clashes, man.
Things can be at the core of clashes between men of God, over misunderstandings.
So ministry is, we've talked about our journeys, and you know, we could go on talking and talking.
But one thing is clear, like you have said, we're all servants of God in various capacities.
We're all called to shine a light.
Not, it's called his purpose, not ours, you call the code into his purpose.
And so if you're listening to us, we might have touched a few things here and there,
but our aim was to bring out some of the highlights that we think are very vital in any form of
ministry.
I know we haven't touched some things like business and so on, but we live in a realm
of time.
So I'm going to say, thank you so much, man of God, for the moments that we've had.
I know you had so much more wisdom, you came with your tab.
I didn't have any more wisdom, more than you, but I've realized that for this conversation
to flow, we need people.
But thank you so much.
Dr. George, thank you, Apostle, thank you, my co-host, McLean, thank you.
And if you're out there, learn to pick nuggets and learn from the ancient parts of people
who have gone before you, because we all are on a path of trajectory, and we're not saying
we've made it, we're saying we've learnt a lot, we've made mistakes, and we're moving
forward.
May God bless you.
See you next time.