Hello everybody and welcome to the RDM podcast.
My name is Rabbi Daniel Malinga.
We are back for part two discussing near-death experiences.
We had an interesting discussion the previous episode
and now we're back with someone else.
I'm going to introduce my guest.
But before I do so, we're going to take a look at a clip
that is going to set a foundation, a preamble,
before we dive in.
Watch this.
In the year 2012, I was home.
I was at home in Barara in my room alone sleeping.
And I was in the process of waking up.
And then my spirit left the body.
When it left the body, I was observing it lying down on bed.
And then while I was still confused,
I found myself in heaven.
And the first thing I saw was the staircase.
It was quite with some gold in it.
I saw two, there were three angels smiling at me.
And that's when it dawned on me that I had died.
So I told them I wanted to see God.
One of them smiled and led me somewhere.
It was a very glorious place.
And it was full of glory and light.
And though it wasn't like a throne room,
God seated somewhere, but I just felt the presence of God
I could see my auntie in the room back home.
So she came in and she was crying when she saw my body there lying.
She came and shook me.
I was a bit stiff.
So she went out and called others to come and see what had happened.
I was seeing those things while I was at the same time I was in heaven.
So I'm in heaven, talking to God.
I was telling him, I've just gotten born again, I want to serve you.
I need more years on earth, I need to live, I need to serve you.
Because I feel like I haven't lived up to that.
I feel like I'm going to die young and I don't want it.
I was seeing the events that were taking place in my home.
My cousin saw my eyes and I no longer had the pupil.
They had grown up and it was just white.
So they took me to a clinic in Barra.
While we were in the way, they called two prominent pastors in Barra to come and perform.
Because I wasn't sick.
I was just sleeping and that happened.
I had no issue.
So when they reached the hospital, I was told that the nurses told them that they couldn't take in a corpse.
They thought I was already dead.
Ever since that experience, my eyes have been opened to the spirit world.
We have set up Riambo.
I'm going to introduce the people in the studio with me before we go deep into what we're going to discuss.
And then we'll see how far we can go.
On my left is my co-host, Afimani McLean.
You're very welcome.
Thank you so much.
On his far left is Gloria Mahoro Wallyemera.
She's a lecturer.
Yes.
Gloria, you're very welcome.
Thank you Rabbi.
And she's the focus of our session today.
She's going to share with us her experience.
And on my right, we're welcoming back the doctor from his busy schedule, Dr. George Semakajie.
You're very welcome.
Thank you.
I need to remember that name.
OK, you're very welcome sir.
He's also a man of God.
He's going to give us a lot of details and info into what we have to discuss today.
Gentlemen and lady, we have just watched something very brief on a lady who had an experience where,
unlike our previous guest in the previous episode, she went to sleep.
She was alone in a room and she felt the body getting cold and she died.
She left her body, found herself somewhere.
OK, now we're going to go deeper into that because her eyes, according to the story,
her eyes were the pupils could not be seen.
They had become white.
Doctor, you know this story because this happens to be your wife.
OK, interesting.
Yes, so is that clinical death?
I guess for some patients, when they die, I can't say, well, you know,
the movement of the eyes and the reflexes are controlled by the brainstem.
So let's imagine I will roll up and down.
And then as it's rolling up, it stays there.
It kicks in.
That's why for some people, you find it's still white and black.
Then for other people, if it's rolled back, it's basically just white.
So it's when does the reflex die out?
That will determine.
OK, so you're saying that if you check the pupil, she was particular about the people.
If the pupils are no longer directing to light, then.
Then she's dead.
OK, and given the fact that from the story,
they took the body to a clinic and they refused the body because they checked.
They must have checked and they refused.
And they said, we don't take corpses.
OK, you have anything to add to this before we go into this,
because we're going to discuss it.
Just that it's an interesting introduction to today's session.
We're continuing with the story.
We're going to be focusing on near-death experiences, but also out-of-body experiences.
And an out-of-body experience is different from a near-death experience.
What is an out-of-body experience, if we may, before we go to Gloria?
An out-of-body experience.
OK, I'll try to recap it from the near-death experience.
Right.
In the near-death experience, like I'll just pick from the narration,
she was able to get out of her body and see her own body.
So that essence of someone being out of their body
and being able to still observe the environment and stuff like that,
or even probably get caught up in the house,
it's what they're calling an out-of-body experience.
So you're saying that it is possible for a near-death experience,
an out-of-body experience can happen in a near-death experience.
Correct.
Yes, but it's possible to have an out-of-body experience
without having a near-death experience.
So astral projection is an out-of-body experience.
Astral projection, for all purposes, is actually intentional.
But there are out-of-body experiences that are not intentional.
And they happen.
The Lord can pick up someone.
And we're going to touch on those as we go along.
So Gloria, I'm going to ask you, you had an experience.
You're the center of our story today.
Please, go ahead and give us your experience and what you learned from it.
OK, so I have three children for starters.
With the first one, we had some strange experiences there.
But on the second is when this experience actually happened,
the center of this discussion.
But the third also, the third child also, we had some few experiences there,
mostly to do with his health, nothing so spiritual.
First, take us to the first one, briefly.
What happened?
What was strange about that birth and conception?
For the first one, there were a lot of dreams, a lot of dream encounters.
One in particular that stands out for me is around the sixth, seventh month,
when the belly is a bit big.
I would have dreams where like a snake is coming with its two fangs
and bites all the way into the baby's foot, the heel of the foot.
Like the other scripture that he shall, what is the scripture in full?
But it has to do with the serpent biting the heel of the man's son.
So I would look at all these things and I realized there's something weird
going on with this pregnancy.
Then in between, there were a lot of snakes dreaming a lot of snakes.
And then I chose a name.
There's a name that I actually liked to name this child,
even though the father is more geared towards African names.
Me, I chose Karl, K-A-R-L.
Now, when I looked up what Karl meant, it meant a free man.
Interesting.
It meant a free man.
I think it came from the days of slavery in Europe.
So I liked the name.
I just liked German things basically, including the Mercedes.
So I went with that name and in the hospital,
strangely enough, after a long, not a very long period,
like from 7 a.m. to around midday,
I had this very intense labor whereby I don't even want to go there.
It felt like they were pounding a hammer on top of your head
and then the paint just goes through the whole body.
And this was your first child, eh?
Eh, this is the first child.
So, Doctor, that's consistent with the first birth experience.
What is too consistent?
Okay, everyone's pregnancy is different.
We already say each pregnancy is different.
The most consistent thing with the first pregnancy is
what we always know is, well, the fear, I will say,
you understand, for mothers, most especially,
well, I may not be at your home with you and the child,
but I'll judge from what I've seen in the hospital.
Sorry, it's more painful than the other and stuff like that.
Nevertheless, when you interact with different mothers,
they will tell you, so the expenses she's giving,
that are speech and stuff like that,
could have just been consistent with that child.
And it's interesting that most of the pregnant women,
always, okay, most of them have these dreams of snakes
and dark things coming for their children.
Maki, do you think there's a specific reason for that?
I think I'll just borrow a leaf from one of your very summons.
How the devil just has a...
I've had that against women.
But I'm interested in hearing the depth
of where she's going with the story.
Okay, go ahead.
So where are we?
We're at the hospital and we're having labor.
So the labor is so intense,
and they go ahead to put that drip,
that inducing thing to fasten up the labor.
They had checked the baby, the baby was fine in the morning hours,
but towards the midday hour, around one, two there,
they put the inducing drug.
That just made the pain a lot worse.
Like you wanted to scream, but it can't work.
To scratch, it can't work.
All the time was just Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
In the midst of that feeling,
of course, a little betrayed, like really, Jesus.
How many times have I called you?
Like you said, we shall call on your name
and we shall be saved.
Kind of saved me here.
So I called Jesus, I called Jesus,
I called Jesus non-stop.
Until some hours into the inducing medicine,
a doctor comes and checks and finds a,
the call over liquid is almost like rabbi's shirt,
that dark green.
Doctor, what is she talking about?
I see him looking at me.
Yes.
I was talking to you.
Imagine, what if I forgot?
Okay, we basically call it mekonium.
Of course, there is, how can I call it?
There is that usually the futile liquid,
but usually when the baby excretes pieces
from within during the delivery,
and that mixes with all these other fluids
and stuff like that, it's not a good thing.
So it's usually a marker of futile distress,
and so many other things,
futile distress, obstruction and stuff like that.
But once you see that, that's usually an indication
for probably going for an emergency,
because the more they, means mixing with the fluids
that are entering, they are bored and stuff like that.
They are at a threat of getting what we call
in atosepsis when they are born.
Sickness, okay.
Okay, thank you doctor.
So that's exactly what they say,
that the fetoid distress.
So they rolled me to theater, like as soon as possible.
We ran, practically ran to theater,
and I remember the theater was occupied at that time.
So they had to put that anesthetic of the back
while we were in the corridor.
Now when they put it, remember I was here,
shouting because of the intense pain.
When they put the first one, all the pain just faded,
like shh, faded, all of it gone.
Like guys, what were you waiting for?
You should have done this earlier.
Cause it's now like four.
I've been in this situation since seven
at around mid-date, intensified.
Really, you should have done this earlier.
So we enter the theater, they do the operation
within a few minutes, just like 12, 15 minutes
while they're talking to you, of course.
But when they got the baby out,
he delayed a bit to make a sound,
and then he had a dark green color pigment.
I remember the doctors making a joke about it.
Eh, I don't know what's wrong with that.
Doctor, what is that?
It must have been the macaroni.
The totemix is up with everything.
Okay.
So they checked him up and found the child is fine.
He's healthy.
They said they had detected it quickly.
But first forward to the night,
the first night with the child,
at around 3 a.m., 3 a.m., yeah.
I'm sleeping in the room, the recovery room
with the person I'd gone with.
She was my maid at the time.
She was a spiritual girl.
So we used to share dreams, but...
So at that point, we all wake up at the same time.
The baby's screaming, I'm having a dream,
she's having a dream.
I'm having a dream when like at the hospital,
there's a white man, no offense to the white,
the white man is holding a walking stick.
He's a bit old.
He was one-legged like he was lame.
And he has a string of babies,
new bones following him into the bush near the hospital.
And then the girl is having a dream
that a gorilla has snatched the baby.
So we all wake up like in a state of,
what's going on here?
We start binding, of course.
Yeah, living in your authority, you know.
And the baby survived and we were discharged in three days.
And then like that first week of the baby's life,
I had no milk.
Most, many people who go through C-sections
somehow lack milk, I don't know why.
But I didn't have the milk and I didn't know.
That's the key issue I didn't know
because this is a first time baby.
It was around Christmas time.
That child was born on December 28th.
So many people who would have advised us
were off to the villages, what?
So we went with our baby home with nobody
who is experienced to look after the baby.
So a few days at home, like after Christmas,
a cousin of mine comes and he's like,
no, no, no, no, there's something wrong with this baby.
This baby is too thin and the baby had a temperature.
We had taken him to the hospital,
they said, no, let the feeding improve.
What? The baby will be fine.
And at the hospital where he was born,
they had strictly warned us not to give him anything else
apart from breast milk.
Because around that time,
there were many fake formulas on the market
and they killed some babies.
So we didn't give him anything else.
He said, no, there's something wrong.
There's something wrong.
She already had three kids.
She called my mom, she basically created an alarm
around the family and they had to come and see
what's up with this baby.
So we had to run back to the hospital where he was born.
Pete looked at us and he's like, you feed that baby.
I want to observe you.
He observed us feeding that baby for like two hours.
And then he said, hmm, I think it's milk that's lacking.
We go and buy him formula now from our own pharmacy.
So we rushed and bought him formula.
But even around that week,
we were told this baby was about to die
because he lost one kilogram from the birth weight.
What was the birth weight?
The birth weight was 3.4 and now he was at 2.4.
Okay, yet it's supposed to go the other way around.
Yes, then the free man issue.
Remember I told you that I used to call him Carl
even through the pregnancy.
When he was born,
the doctors told us he had a code around his neck twice,
but also behind his hands were tangled in a code
like a prison.
Oh, wow. Wow.
Then I knew why I named him Carl.
Yeah, so your husband's cultural name?
Nedda. Okay.
Okay, so that's the first experience,
but I want us to go to,
because even that in itself is spiritual.
But I want us to go to focus on your second birth.
When it happened and start from the beginning
and take us through.
So this other child was a girl,
the first one was a boy, a girl.
So it happens in 2016,
three years after this other one.
This one was three years when this one was born.
2016, November, I checked into the hospital on 19th
so that the doctor could have my C-section
on November 28th.
We had been given an option of trying to push,
but given the trauma of the first,
even my other elders, like my mom said,
ah, but if the other situation of not getting enough
centimeters happens again
and the baby goes through the same stress,
let's just eliminate that risk, go for the season.
You have two options.
So we arranged for the season.
So we reached hospital in the night,
labor was not supposed to be coming at that time
because the doctor tried to schedule at least a week
before the real, the real date of,
the EDD, expected date of delivery.
But at midnight of that night,
the labor begins disturbing slowly by slowly,
not much, not so much pain,
but pain I could sleep with,
I actually slept the whole night in the morning very early.
He comes in, they start prepping me for the surgery,
give me everything I need,
and then we go down, the theater was downstairs
from where we had slept.
We go down to the theater.
As soon as we reach the theater, I collapse.
And they're like, hey, this one has feared too much,
on a new theater.
All the ladies were laughing and they think, eh, it's a joke.
So you collapsed, but you could hear them laughing at you?
Yes, at that point I could still hear them.
I could hear them talking and they're like,
eh, so they check me, they feel my pulse,
put that pressure thing,
and they're like, eh, I don't know,
I'm just under pressure, it's too low, it's too low.
So I'm like, this pressure is not good,
it's not good for an operation, it's neither good
for operation or no for delivery.
So they were stuck with the patient.
And then the doctor was somewhere doing some other things,
they're like, we need to call that doctor now, now, now.
His patient is strange, she's reacting very strangely.
They put me on the operating table,
started doing the things they do in such emergencies,
turn me the other side, this side, check my feet, you know,
try to look for better pressure in all ways.
Apparently there are some positions which enhance.
No, of course, when what you're having
is what they call hypotension,
the body survives on pressure being,
I mean, blood being able to reach other places.
So imagine the heart is supposed to pump
to the brain uphill.
So let's imagine the pressure reduces
because the pressure that comes through,
what we call the blood pressure,
comes from the force of the heart that is beating,
and it is like transmitted through the blood vessels.
And that same force is able to go to the brain
and stuff like that.
So let's imagine you're standing where you were seated
and then you collapse on your hypotensive.
The organs that are far from heart,
looking at how understanding will be the ones
that will suffer, you understand.
So what happens is there are positions we can put you in
and use the advantage of gravity.
For example, we will tilt you with the head down
and the blood will, by reason of gravity,
the pressure will be.
So that's for low pressure.
What about high pressure?
When you have high pressure, we control it.
Okay, so when you have low pressure,
we can give you blood.
We can give you things that,
there are medications that will either reduce
the space of the vessels and stuff like that,
you understand it?
So the pressure can increase.
There are also those that can increase
the pumping of the heart and stuff like that.
So I'm certain they will give all those remedies,
but they will utilize everything we can do.
We'll give you the medication.
We'll also tilt your head down.
Okay.
You understand it?
All right, thank you, doctor.
Tilting, I have to remember that one.
Okay, tilt head down like this.
Okay, go ahead, Gloria.
So they give me all those, control it,
bring the doctor in and the doctor also starts checking
and he's shocked because all through the pregnancy,
he has not seen any sign of me getting any low pressure.
But then all of a sudden, here is the low pressure
and the labor which he was avoiding has already set in.
Then the operation also needs to take place.
So they sat there puzzled about what to do.
Then he checks my heart, he said it has, is it a mama?
That's an added sound, eh?
Yes.
Imagining, try to compensate it.
Sensing the pressure is low, try and compensate by,
let's call it mama.
Yeah, an added sound.
Okay.
Trusting, trusting.
It's mama ring, okay.
It's mama ring, yeah?
Oh, okay.
All right.
That I had mama.
So they started looking for another type
of doctor called a physician.
Specialist.
Yes.
So the physician was supposed to apparently observe
the external symptoms to give them an internal analysis.
So they looked for the physician.
Suddenly, this physician's phone for that hospital
was off, totally off.
At that point, my sister sensed danger and said,
this one, ah, we need to send out a prayer call.
So my mom happens to be a pastor.
So my sister calls my mom, calls some other people
who pray with us, and my mom stopped the service
immediately, which she was in.
She's like, my daughter is in labor.
We need to pray for her.
And they prayed and did what?
So like 20 minutes into looking for a solution,
as I'm there by the on the table,
they're still monitoring, it's still low.
And you're conscious, right?
Yeah, by then I'm conscious.
Right.
So I'm hearing them.
I'm telling them, guys, everything is going to be fine.
Relax.
I'm the one consoling the medical team.
The people around, yes, the medical team.
Cause prior to that, now I have to bring in
what brought my confidence.
I'd had a dream encounter, like around seven months,
eight months, just recent, before hospital.
And in that encounter, I was there, pregnant,
and about to deliver.
I remember I was about to deliver.
And then it was like a compound, green grass tree,
people are doing their own things around there,
seated, having conversations,
some are washing, some are doing,
everyone is busy doing what they want.
And then I went into labor, like I needed help.
And as they are alone, near a tree,
almost giving birth, and people are not bothered,
not bothered.
I'm like, guys, help me, guys, help me,
no one is helping me.
Another person came, guys, help her, help her.
No, no one is bothered.
Then there was a man who came and said,
guys, help her.
But I recognized the man, cause he was again white.
Was a white man who had seen another dream,
and in that dream, he had simply asked me,
do you know Psalm 113?
He's like, you read it.
I actually told him, you tell me what it says.
He said, you can read it.
Then he smiled a big smile, and I woke up.
So I thought, maybe he's an angel.
Right?
So this is the angel now telling guys, help her.
Demons don't quote scriptures, but today,
they do quote scriptures,
but not for encouraging you.
Okay, go ahead.
So he tells them, guys, help her,
and they refuse their continuing their own business.
Then suddenly in the tree, I was at the base of a tree.
In the tree, a lion appeared, and then it roared just once.
Once it roared, everybody left whatever they were doing
and ran to help me.
This one is grabbing my shoe.
This one.
I was now the center of attention.
The lion of Judaism speaks.
That's very interesting.
It's similar.
You notice that what we talked about in the previous episode,
that God always seems to give a precursor
of what someone is going to go through.
And that says a lot about our lives
and the things that we go through.
And again, the issue of lion is coming.
And I think that's why he says,
use the words of prophecy, you know,
to wedge a good warfare.
It's not just so that you get excited
and you leave it at that.
Because by that time, if you had forgotten that dream,
I don't think your experience would be
what you're sharing now.
I love to call it a, you know,
when they say put on the whole armor
that you may be able to stand in the evil day.
So the word of the spirit is not just entirely
the word of God, but it's that word you got
for that evil day.
Yeah, exactly.
The evil day will come the season.
Yes.
Okay, powerful.
Go ahead, now go to the event.
So you remember the dream, huh?
Remember the dream, so I knew,
ah, that lion of Judah is in this thing.
Let the devil play all his tactics.
When he's done, I'm going home with the baby.
That's basically, that was my bottom line.
All this drama going on was not my focus at that time.
So I shut it down.
I told guys, you relax, relax.
Things will look funny, but I'll go home
with the baby, relax.
I told, I was telling the nurses to relax.
Meanwhile, for them, they knew,
they had this feeling, I was totally afraid,
but they didn't know that I'm just quiet
because I know things are going to play out in my favor.
So right about that time,
the person whose phone was off the physician
just shows up in the hospital, live now.
Like they didn't now have to summon him.
He just arrived and they told,
ah, physician, we've been looking for you everywhere.
Your phone was off.
He came on his own business.
I don't know.
It's like he does some other business with the hospital
and he came to do that, not to work.
So when he came, they told him, there's a patient.
We need the consult now, now, now.
And they brought him, started checking my nails,
my eyes, my feet, legs, if they were swollen,
basically assessing how bad this low pressure situation was.
So when he finished his assessments,
they told him, operate this lady
because the labor is already in
and that's worse if she has low pressure.
Operate her, but make sure you're done
with everything you're doing in 20 minutes.
That anaesthetic must not take more than 20 minutes
in her body.
Why? Why is that?
Oh, because if they were going to take the operation
for so long, like I told you,
the anaphasia many times slows,
it's supposed to slow down body activity.
Some of it slows down a bit of heartbeat
and stuff like that, things like that.
So you risk, and she was at a high risk
because it's high potential.
So if you're going to kick in some drugs,
some drugs also, because they will look at what drug
they're going to use, are going to also lower the pressure.
Others are also going to lower the breathing
and stuff like that.
So they know that if they are not able to meet
a certain kind of pressure,
there's a pressure that helps distribution
of this blood all over the body and stuff like that
could mean ulterior pressure.
It's like an average of something,
usually a difference between history,
cancer, story, something like that.
If it's not at a certain level,
so they're just trying to make sure
there's enough perfusion for a certain time,
like the body won't hold on
after a certain specific period of time.
Okay.
So for that, they told them also use general
because apparently general is better.
It lowers it a little less than the other.
Than the spine.
Yeah, the spinal one.
So they told them to use general
and so they put that general aesthetic thing on my nose.
As soon as they put it,
that's when the experiences began.
You're saying experiences plural?
Okay, just go ahead.
Because I went to different places.
Okay, go ahead.
Let me not preempt it.
Okay.
So I started to drift.
Like drift, like, you know, like...
So you felt you were getting out of your body?
Yes, I felt like I'm now going.
The last word I said continued with me.
Which word was that?
They asked me, what do you feel now?
I said, labor.
I went like, labor.
Okay.
All right, so, okay, go on.
Because they make you count down
as they put the thing.
So, like, by the time you reach 10, you're gone.
So someone else's word was Jesus, God uses labor.
Mine is labor, can you imagine?
All right, go ahead.
So I go with labor and I go like drifting.
So as soon as I drift,
I don't see what's going on in the theater room.
I just find myself in another place, but ascending.
Okay, so, I'm sorry, I have to keep on interjecting
because we might not be able to come back.
So you feel yourself getting out of your body?
Do you see anything around you?
No.
You don't see anything around you?
What, is it dark?
What do you see?
What do you feel?
Do you hear voices?
Can you hear the people in the room talking?
Yeah, I could hear the people in the room talking,
but briefly before I totally left the theater.
Okay.
Then I left the theater, the theater wasn't dark.
It was as it is.
Then when I left the theater area and went,
now I went into something not built.
Like clouds.
So it's a realm.
Crispy, yes.
It's a realm.
Were you cautious of your body?
Like, could you feel like there's a body that,
or you just felt light and?
I felt light.
There wasn't a body.
I felt like I'm a wind going, flying.
So, doctor, because before we continue,
the previous experience we had,
we agreed based on your medical advice and counsel.
That it's probably likely that this person died
because there was some near-death experience.
What is your consult on this?
The moment she began speaking and said,
the moment they put on her face and then you understand it,
I felt more what it might have been,
an out of body experience.
It's not a near-death experience.
Yeah, because in a near-death experience,
there are always events to death.
And even when you hear people,
if some don't get a chance to explain,
those who explain will tell you that impending doom,
like there was something similar to the lady who was before,
you understand me.
For her, the woman on her face, you're kicked in.
She left, which is actually a bit common to some people.
Even though some people feel it's hallucinations
and stuff like that,
but why they judge them not to be hallucinations
when research was done on some people.
Some of them were able to actually tell the events.
Not to account.
I remember one particular story I read.
They resuscitated this gentleman and happened to take off,
I think, a ring or a bango when a doctor took it off.
So days later, when he comes back for a review, you know what I'm saying?
I need my ring.
He's like, goodbye anyway, my ring.
Say how?
He's like, you come with so-and-so and you took it off
and put it there.
So it's been whatever.
There's even another famous one of one doctor
who, while they were operating a tumor,
went out all over the internet and they were able to describe it.
I think the ones that usually go out,
and people who don't believe that these things actually exist,
so when they come out and narrate it,
usually it pounds deeper into people that are...
So you're saying her experience was more of an out-of-body
and due to anesthesia?
Due to anesthesia, yes, because it will put...
Like I told you, many times anesthesia can put the brain to whatever,
but first she was normal and then the moment it kicked in,
whatever, it happens a lot for people in theater.
Okay.
There are people in theater, it happens too,
number of times, they leave their body and just...
Okay.
So yours was an out-of-body based on medical consult.
Go ahead.
Okay, go ahead.
So we drift, but now I'm saying we,
because I could feel like billions of other people
are also moving the same way.
Like they are going up, you know they are there,
you're very conscious that there are people, very many.
Let's describe this realm for me.
What you could remember,
before we go into the people that you saw there,
describe this realm, what could you feel?
Was it huge?
Try to give us a glimpse into it, give us an image.
Okay.
So once I hit that realm, first of all, I realized the earth is too small.
Like it was huge, big, big, you could feel it that where I am is endless.
Okay.
And then the things I could see were like cloudy misty clouds,
bright, cloudy, blueish, not so gray, white.
So you can't describe the place you are at as heaven.
It's more to you, it's similar to like Banizu's.
It's a realm somewhere, but it didn't feel like heaven.
Not yet.
Oh, okay, interesting.
It was like I was on a journey.
Where I end up is more like heaven.
Okay, go ahead.
So we go in that big, misty realm.
There are people going, you feel like you're all flying in the same direction.
But you can't talk to each other.
You can't communicate, you can't touch.
You just know there are people.
You're conscious that there are people and they're all going.
Then all of a sudden a ton of forms, like higher up, a ton of forms and it's dark.
But I usually see it in the, you know, like when they are playing songs in church and scriptures,
those displays they make, I'm like, how did this person see what design what I saw?
So it's a tunnel like arrangement.
We enter, people enter, flooding in actually, entering is not less than a million.
Men, people entering, we are all entering in there.
And then there is a cry that was being, that I could hear from people who are entering into that tunnel.
I cannot pronounce it and I cannot say it.
I cannot even begin to write it because there are no letters for it.
But you remember it.
But I remember it very well.
If I had it again, I would know this is the word.
And I know what it meant.
It meant extreme death.
Like first forget about this death of ours.
The other death was like times a million.
And all these people are crying it.
Yes, people are crying it like it's deep anguish.
All, I don't know to what extent I can describe it, but it seemed almost endless death.
Like someone has realized this is it.
I'm done.
And then they know they are going somewhere and they know where they are going.
Things are bad, but they have to go.
There is no turning back because there was nobody I saw turning back.
Everyone was.
It's like they were pulling.
They were being pulled.
Yes, it was magnetic in nature.
Actually, could you turn to your left to your right?
Yes, you could turn left right, but you had to ascend and enter the tunnel.
OK.
So we enter the tunnel.
It's darkening.
It's grayish at the front, but darkening as you go in.
But I'm seeing a multitude of people entering, flying those zines into the darkness.
So as I'm still there, for me, another tunnel branched off.
Another tunnel appeared like a tunnel in the tunnel.
And there was extreme light, these zines.
So me, I turned to enter the light and I'm like, why are people going the other side?
When there is light here?
So it was puzzling.
I was like, but I didn't understand it at that moment.
I didn't understand why people are being drawn to their darkness as me am turning off.
And I remember turning off alone.
Out of these many people.
Out of these multitudes.
Yes.
Wow.
Wait a minute.
So these two tunnels, let me just ask this, because I'm asking from scripture, these two
tunnels, the dark one and the one where you branched off, where there was light.
Which one was bigger and which one was smaller?
About the same size.
Yeah, but they were distinctly different in terms of darkness, light.
Distinct.
You could tell this is light.
People come here.
I even turned around to look to see if other people are coming and they are not coming.
Wow.
Doctor, from your medical opinion.
This is not a medical.
Best of research.
Okay, okay, okay.
If I'm going to die, I checked out and I was tough.
Well, okay.
From, I think what we are having is a classic case of, don't get shocked when you are
having near-death experience with an out of body.
Why am I saying that?
When you read the tunnel experience, people will see that tunnel light at the end of whatever,
based on research.
I'm just based on research, you understand?
I usually, majority of them, they were near-death experiences.
So this is something that the spirit was going somewhere.
Yes.
Yes, the spirit was going somewhere.
So it could also be that, at that moment, she probably died, you understand?
No first ones, the heart is still whatever, you get it?
The brain was shut, because it looks like this drug sort of put the brain to just a
certain kind of bus or whatever, you understand?
Like I told you, it has been seen that the reading on the EEG for the encephalogram, the
one for the brain, encephal, to mean the brain, is similar to the disease.
So from my experience, based on the stories you read around, it's a mixture, it's most
likely near-death experience, like you said, the near-death experience, many times you'll
have an out of body.
Okay.
So for me, I mean, reaching that part of your story, I'm like, okay, this is a near-death
experience.
Yes.
So it's interesting, I would like to know before you go into the experience that you
had with a man of God, in that realm.
I'm preempting it, but I wanted to know, how long were you down, were you out?
The doctors have been told, keep me out for 20 minutes.
So in those 20 minutes, all this was happening?
That's all I'm seeing a lot in the 20 minutes.
Okay.
That's very interesting.
So for 20 minutes, you're out, and the people on the other side, okay, it was only the doctors,
because I think it's in the theater, so you didn't have any family or anything inside
there, did you?
No.
And they tell you about anything peculiar that happened on the outside, while you were in
this scenario, did your brain just stop?
What happened?
No.
All they told me, okay, the surgeon was a bit worried, like, I think they reached in the
middle somewhere and thought, eh, she's gone, or she's going.
And I remember as I was ascending, I was also like, oh God, it seems today we are meeting
physically.
Like, I felt conscious that I may be going, really going.
And then I knew from the other dream, again, I may not be going, like.
So in this experience, you could remember your other dream?
Yes.
Okay.
All right, take us to the tunnel, the white side and so on.
So remember, the other guys are crying, a certain death cry.
Stringing in my ear as even as they continue.
So I'm wondering why are these people going for the death, and it seemed to be coming
from the other side of the tunnel, but also from them.
Oh, so the cry is also coming from the other side of the tunnel.
Yes.
Like, lots of people shouting.
Yes, something like that.
Okay, I couldn't hear the people shouting, but I could feel like the source of this sound
is from that side, but it's like it has a piece of itself inside this.
Like it's calling its own.
Something like that.
Wow.
Okay.
Go on.
So we move into the white tunnel.
So when I reached the white tunnel, I look around the tunnels by the extremely bright,
brighter than normal lights.
But I couldn't see anywhere with a bulb, no bulb, no lighting systems as we know them.
It was an arena, round, like, yeah, a round arena, these ones for football.
So it's there, and in the middle of the arena, there's like a stage, and there's a man of
God ministering.
He was ministering in a white suit, and it was profiteal of his money.
Nice.
So he's ministering, and he's singing this song, Heaven on Earth.
But the way they're singing the Heaven on Earth, the choir is singing it, but it sounds
like this cry of death, but in the opposite, but with the same intensity.
So it's a cry of life.
Yes.
Okay.
But it's like Heaven, Heaven on Earth, and you can hear, it's in the heavenlies, me,
you know we are in the heavenlies now, but it's like when they say Heaven on Earth, the
sound goes up to the easternmost tip of the earth, westernmost tip of the earth, northernmost
and southernmost.
It's like...
A vibration.
Wow.
I guess it's what some in the Bible, they talk about the whole earth, the whole earth
praises you, when they have the earth, something like that.
So it reverberates up to the ends of the earth, Heaven goes bouncing, Heaven, Heaven on Earth,
like bounces up to all the corners of the whole earth, was bathed in the cry of Heaven
on Earth.
And then in the same intensity with these other people, it was a cry so deep, I cannot describe.
So were you singing along with them?
No, I was observing, but observing the family and now, because I've seen Prophet Minister
with it, and I'm just like, kumbe we are, we are like, we can have fellowship, we be
having fellowship on earth thinking this is earth, but it's like something else is
happening here.
A deeper fellowship, a replica of sorts of spiritual kind of.
And something else I sensed there, it's like the angels, the heavenly beings were all longing
to attend this fellowship.
You felt like these people were human beings?
Yeah, the ones who were worshiping were the real actual fellowship, human beings with
their pastor, like with their man of good.
My fellow guys, you have been there.
All right.
But then I had this feeling that the whole of Heaven wants to participate in this thing,
like the people who died, by then, yeah, the people who died, the people who, you know,
the saints are all wishing to be part of it, when is, when is fellowship coming for us
to interact with our brethren, like something like that, that's what I felt.
It built this confidence that the fellowship we have here, and the saints observing.
A fellowship we have on earth, as children of God.
Yes, go ahead.
It's not just fellowship on earth, there's a lot more going on than we think, and we
have distant effects.
And you know the Bible says, seeing that we're surrounded by so many a cloud of witnesses.
So what we do actually affects the spiritual.
Is there anything else that happened after that?
I could see where the light was coming from.
You could look up and actually see a throne.
And I knew it was good.
I knew it's good, but I could see his beaming.
That light was beaming like a big torch into the what, into the fellowship.
The fellowship had no, the arena had no bulbs.
It was strictly thrown light.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so, did you do anything?
Did you say anything before you came back to consciousness?
No.
Just as I was there, observing, still taking it all in, the magnificence, everything I'm
still taking it in, I found myself back at.
And you could remember everything when you were walking?
Everything actually more vividly.
I could not just remember what has happened.
I could feel the feelings I've just been through and their intensity.
They faded with, like, I tried to write the words.
And you couldn't?
And I couldn't.
I tried to pronounce the words.
I could not.
Then I realized, eh, this is not at least a forget.
So Anesthesia should have been for 21 minutes.
Man.
Okay.
Before we go, we're going to ask you the effects later and so on and so forth.
Gentlemen, do you have anything to add to that?
Because I want us to talk about the biblical concept of these things that are happening.
I think if I sat down and interviewed ladies who have gone through birth.
Yeah.
I think so.
You would find so many familiar stories.
Stories, eh?
Yeah.
I think one of these days, you should do a research.
You talk about other people's researches.
No, it opened my eyes because you see, if you don't know, you can never really try to
get some information and stuff like that.
But I'm going to begin asking.
You know, we don't try to, but I'm going to begin asking.
And I know it won't take long before I realize there will be so many stories, amazing stories.
It's not every day that we have this kind of opportunity.
So when we have it, we try to make the most out of it, right?
So because we've, we've had people who've said they've visited heaven and they've given
us their own accounts and most times they are distant, you know, stories, not people
who we can sit next to and things like that.
When you were in heaven, if I can say that, when you were in heaven, did you feel the
aspect of time?
Were you time conscious or that wasn't there?
All I can say is that given, when I compared 20 minutes I was given this side to what happened
dozens, the other side, it seemed a lot longer.
It seemed eternal.
Have there been any side effects from the experience that you've had?
Some people, like the lady who was listening to Lydian, when she had her out of body experience,
actually, near-death experience, she literally died, got out of her body, she came back and
now she can see in the spirit clearly, it's like a portal was opened up.
Is there something similar to you?
No.
It was just a one, one time experience.
Okay.
I went through another one, but I don't know if the two are related.
It was so brief, seconds, if I can say so, or a minute.
Was this during childbirth or?
No.
The first time I was asleep, early morning, like at 7, 7, 20, so I woke up and realized,
I think I'd been reading about out-of-body experiences in a book, which I don't remember
very well, so that morning, as I was waking up, I realized, I'm not in my body, I'm outside.
I tried to elbow my husband because he was next to me and my hand would just pass through
him, like it's air.
And I'm like, but this time I've gone, when I don't know where I'm going, I'm not conscious.
I felt like I'd been stolen, like I hadn't known what, where is this heading?
Because the other one, it felt like I had been called, come and see and then you go back.
So this one seemed really go.
This one seemed really go.
And you know, you know, I really felt it.
We're going to talk about this because the Bible talks about in the book of Ecclesiastes,
what they call the Silver Code.
And you know what the Silver Code is.
Yeah, of course.
Please tell us.
Doctor.
Your spiritual doctor as well.
I think it's the code that ties, I think, the soul to the body.
Yes.
Yeah, so you're attached.
So what happens is that if that Silver Code gets cut, once a person goes, they're gone.
If that Silver Code is still connected to the body, you will go and it's what enables
you to come back.
Unless there's some sort of divine situation.
Because we were discussing with you, Doctor, and we're talking about, are there near-death
experiences in the Bible, or is this thing just random that is just taking place?
Because everything that happens on the face of the earth is not new.
It should find its root in the Bible.
So we were having this discussion, are there near-death experiences?
Because obviously, they're out of body experiences in the Bible.
Yes.
Though we don't see it, the Bible says, Elisha says to Gehazi, let my spirit not go with
you.
That's a controlled out-of-body experience, out of will.
In the book of Ezekiel, in chapter 8, the Bible says, the hand of God comes, grabs Ezekiel
by the hair, by his locks.
And he's in the spirit.
You know that thing Jesus says to me?
God has grabbed him by his hair.
He's taken up in the spirit.
That means hair has to have the spirit.
Yes, in other words.
Because what are you grabbing?
There's a spiritual version of hair.
That's what I'm trying to say.
There's a spiritual version of hair, Jesus has hair in the Bible and so on.
So he's grabbed and he's taken somewhere, so that's an out-of-body experience.
But are there near-death experiences in the Bible?
Can you think of any?
Could we say Jonah's experience was near-death?
Yes.
Let's read Jonah and I find it interesting because I believe it was a near-death experience
and you don't want to brought it up, but doctor you can...
I didn't read it much.
He had read it.
When you told me about this whole thing, I think I was in office.
I like to read books.
I usually first get information, then I sit down and wait for God to speak.
I usually use it as a hinge to open myself up.
Use the doctors we want.
I know, right?
So in that moment, the Lord whispered and said,
By the way, check out Jonah's experience.
Just look at the scripture, the center.
You know them, let me just send them to you.
Okay, so we're going to read from Jonah chapter one.
You're going to read for me,
Jonah chapter one or chapter two verse one?
Chapter two verse one, sorry.
Jonah two one.
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord, his God, out of the fish's belly.
Okay, so that scripture is very clear.
It says Jonah prayed.
So he's praying.
It's something that is taking place at the moment.
Yes.
And he's praying out of the fish's belly.
Now most people interpret that he was inside the fish and praying,
but he was praying out of the fish's belly.
Out of the fish's belly.
It's not inside it.
But by this time, the fish had swallowed him.
Yes, by this time, it had swallowed him.
Did it eat any of us?
No, we're going to have this discussion
because I found it very interesting.
Read on the next verse.
Verse two,
And said,
I cried by reason of my inflection unto the Lord,
and he heard me.
Okay.
The reason why I believe the first verse is happening after.
Jonah has been sorted out.
It's because it's saying Jonah prayed it's happening.
And he said, he cried.
He's talking in past tense.
I cried.
Okay, read it.
And said,
I cried by reason of my inflection unto the Lord,
and he heard me.
He heard me.
That's past tense.
Yes.
So what he's talking about now is,
the next thing he's going to talk about is things that happened in the past.
It's not happening at that moment.
He's giving an account.
He's giving a testimony.
Go on.
Okay.
Out of the belly of a hell cried I,
and thou hardest my voice.
Are you getting this?
Yes, yes.
Out of the belly I cried.
The belly of hell.
Yes.
Now someone was saying,
now when, at what point did Jonah go to hell?
I thought he was, you know.
The belly of a phil.
You're still going to read, huh?
For thou hardest cast me into the deep,
in the midst of the seas.
You know that the Bible refers to the deep.
It's another version of hell.
Yes.
Scripture talks about the spirit hovered over the deep and all that.
There's a certain section or entrance into the dark world that is in the seas.
It even talks about the belly of hell.
The belly of hell.
That's not always satisfied and always continuously swallowing.
Okay.
Ah, God.
And the floods compassed me about.
All thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Then I said I am cast out of thy side.
Yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
Now notice what's happening.
He's talking and he's saying at that time he said,
I am cast out of your sight.
Okay.
So this is an event where he felt the presence of God.
He couldn't feel it anymore.
Okay.
Go on.
The waters compassed me about.
Even to the soul, the depths closed me around about.
The weeds were wrapped about my head.
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains.
The earth with her bars was about me forever.
Now notice he's talking about bars.
Okay.
So this is a prison kind of experience.
It's not what you see.
We're going to read on.
But what I find interesting here is that a lot of Bible scholars have tried to read this and make sense out of it.
If Jonah did not have this experience, how would he know that there are mountains under the water?
How would he know that there are springs under the water unless he had been there?
Technology, these body suits and so on just came what in the 19th, the 20th century.
So he is a man years before all this technology that is talking about something that men were incapable of finding out until they produced technology.
So this must have been something that happened in the Bible.
Go ahead.
Yet has thou brought up my life from corruption, oh Lord my God.
So his testimony is now he's not talking in past tense.
He's saying now you have brought my life from corruption.
So he's back.
Can you get what I'm saying?
Now, please understand that.
Okay, read again.
Go on.
When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the Lord and my prayer came in unto thee into Zion Holy Temple.
Okay.
They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy, but I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving.
I will pay that I have vowed salvation is of the Lord and the Lord speck unto the fish and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Okay, so here's long story short.
When the Bible says Jonah cried out, I want you to understand that he was going.
Here's what happened.
The fish eats him up while in the fish, he leaves his body and he's going towards hell.
And his spirit has just come back to the body, but still in the fish.
Then he says, I cried out to the Lord and he heard me.
Then the fish vomited out.
That is a near death experience.
And the interesting thing we were discussing this thing, how most of the people, if not all the people that Jesus resurrected from the dead,
never tell us what they saw on the other side.
I'd love to hear what Lazarus saw.
They never tell us.
Leave Lazarus.
There was that Kayaan girl.
But even in the Old Testament, is it Elijah?
None of these people talk about the experiences that they've seen on the other side.
But we do have one particular experience.
Paul, you had something to say about that, please.
No, I was just trying because, like you're saying, when he talked of my soul fainted, it was during the fainting of the soul.
An episode.
It's not as if the soul had left.
So it points more to, he actually realized it was in the happening that he has this experience.
And then what shocked me was, the guy went under water.
How did he get under the mountain?
Because when you, the other discoveries, when you read about, you realize that some of the places like, is it Tottosap like that?
Where some parts of Hela are under the mountains.
Yes.
There's no one place where they've imprisoned one of these angels and stuff like that.
So I'm thinking, he's under the water.
And then he's having an experience under the mountain.
But there's no mountain above.
So it must have been an experience that was not localized to water.
It must have been him being carried somewhere.
Another realm.
Because there was no way, if his body is in the fish, he would be able to see outside the fish.
And he was there for three days.
Three days.
And Ox, Jane, Noah, Noah.
And you see, that's important.
Because the story of Jesus, Jesus says in the book of Matthew chapter 12.
He says, just like Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, social, the son of man.
Spent three days and three nights in, in what?
Yeah, in.
He says, he says in hell.
In hell, yeah.
Now here's what happens.
Notice Jonah's body stays in the belly of the fish.
Jesus' body stays in where it's kept in the tomb.
But both of them, their spirits are not in the body.
Because Jesus ascended and he preached the spirits of those that had died, went to Abrams bosom.
So the similarities between these things tell us something.
That there is a world beyond this one.
And people who actually have these experiences are as traumatic as these experiences are.
They have sort of an advantage when they come back.
There's a way in which there is a drive to live life a particular way.
Though I don't know glory as you, you have that drive.
Did that experience change you in any way?
Yeah, it did change me.
The fact that people were going in the multitudes, my friend.
I was like, wait, we still have a lot to do.
Like we've died, we are so many, and I'm the only one turning off to go to the light.
What does that mean?
It means souls are being lost on a continuous basis and we are here just, you know, in our own world.
Yet that's our job.
So it made me think about move, talking about Christ, sharing Christ.
So, like when I'm hanging out in a place where people don't know Christ,
somehow, somewhere the conversation will have to return to Christ, because I know he's everything.
You know, Paul, in the book of Acts chapter 14, we're not going to go there.
In a place called Lystra, they stoned him.
When they stoned him, the idea, generally, is that he died.
And that's where he got his experience of Second Corinthians.
Where he says, I know of a man, where I'm in a body, a body.
And he says, 14 years ago, and historically, 14 years before that, he was in Lystra.
Okay?
So he stoned, he has this experience, then comes back and gets up and walks.
You understand?
Because these people thought he was dead.
And I'm sure people know how to kill.
You understand?
If they're stoning and they leave a person thinking he's dead,
by the time they think you're dead, you must be wounded enough.
You must have a dead complex.
You understand?
And so by the time he gets up and just walks away, this was something supernatural
Yes, yes, yes.
That was taking place.
So from a biblical perspective, we can point out that is actually these experiences.
The Bible says, though I long to be...
Yes, yes, yes.
I swear to God, I don't know how to comment.
Because when you look at the language of Paul several times,
because one can say what if the experience he had was actually visioned in something like that.
Because when you're having these experiences, I'm thinking in there,
then you have the experience.
But he differentiates because there are places he says,
those I have not seen, who have not seen me in the body.
Or he says, me being in the place he says, when you gather together with my spirit.
So he's differentiating scenarios where he has left his body,
going to observe something in his spirit.
And then there's what I was trying to comment and say,
that I long to be present with you.
I mean to be present with the Lord and something like that to be present with the Lord or with you in the body.
So he's differentiating his capacity to leave his body and go and stuff like that.
But then here he comes and he says, as knowledgeable as Paul was and spiritual tuned,
he said, I don't know whether in the body or out of the body.
And to him out of the body, based on the other scripture, meant him actually what?
Dying, something like that.
That's interesting. I want to ask you guys a question. All of us here.
There are people who have these experiences and end up meeting relatives.
Now the people we've held, plus the lady Lillian we're listening to,
most of the people either just saw God or saw light or had an emotion.
There are people who these experiences meeting people on the other side.
Can the dead communicate?
I'm throwing it to you and I'm not the one answering.
And remember you're on a Christian podcast.
I think the dead in Christ can communicate.
I think.
So you're saying the dead in Christ.
Yes.
But not outside Christ.
That's interesting. Why do you think that?
Of course, because there's the existence of heaven,
but also I'm a strong believer in the fact that after this life,
when we transition to the other side,
we will eventually graduate into becoming angels.
Angels meaning messengers.
Yes.
I hope people start meeting messengers.
And then in that case, the fact that you're using the word messenger,
then it makes sense for you to meet someone like that.
Someone who died in Christ.
And now that's the person that you're meeting.
Because most times when they meet these people,
there's sort of a message that they're given,
sort of an instruction or something that they are told
that they usually come back and narrate.
That's the basis of their meeting, this person up there.
So I'm a strong believer that those who die in Christ,
yes, they have the ability to communicate.
I just want to add one time when they come and ask the Lord,
in the sadduces we never believed in death,
this woman, my, this brother, they die, they die, they die.
And then the Lord is like, no, God is the God of the living
and not the God of the dead.
And then we have several examples in the Bible where Abraham,
I mean not Abraham, okay, talks of Abraham,
a scenario of Abraham, him being alive somewhere.
And then it gives a scenario of Jesus ascending on the mountain
and then interacting with Moses and Elijah and stuff like that.
The other question would be,
because you talked of those not being able to communicate with that,
if you're not in the Lord, something like that,
then what happens in that scenario of Samuel and...
Bringing up tight things.
No, you don't have to go ahead, it's just the question.
Samuel was in the Lord.
Yes, Samuel was in the Lord, but the witch of...
under the Bible says, conjures him up, or is it him?
That's an interesting question.
Yes, that's an interesting question.
The witch of Endo is the one who conjures him up.
So the question he's asking is that, what is that, Mclean?
Unless it was a spirit masquerading as Samuel.
I think the bit of communication is possible for anything that has spirit.
Because spirit has the ability to communicate.
I think now and then the question should be,
is this a clean spirit or an unclean spirit?
Because in the spiritual realm, people also have interactions with the demonic.
And then you can also have interactions with the angelic.
So I think the question is really, who you meet on the other end.
Because again, I'll borrow a story from what our father shared in his book.
And when I saw my father, it's a prophet of this one.
In his book, Testing the Powers of the Age to Come.
I love that story.
The same one where he said, he saw these men walk out of the clouds.
And one looked like Moses, the other looked like Elijah.
And when they spoke to him, they were giving him instructions.
He said, no, wait a minute, these instructions don't add up.
Then he felt, these were not angels, these were demons.
And the moment he says, they realized that they changed their form.
So that's why I believe at the end of the day, it comes down to the spirits.
Whether unclean or clean spirits.
Why do you think, did this experience of yours,
did it give you a perception about life?
Because you've already told us how you felt and so on.
And it affects it hard on you.
But I'm talking about, what does it make you think about
what is out there beyond our five senses?
Let me realize we are in a small, small, tiny, tiny world
compared to what's out there.
The real thing is up there.
This is just, I don't know, rehearsal, the beginning, I don't know, but out there.
That's where the real thing is.
And I could feel it when I left, like, hey, relevance has just begun.
There is an immediate elevation of, I've left the small time.
Now I'm in the big picture.
Interesting.
Some of her love things.
I don't love the part of communication.
Since you're on the part of communication, if at that point when you were there,
you tried to, let's ask for something or inquire about something
and it immediately showed up.
Because I'm saying that because I've had stories of people like that
where they've had these kind of experiences
and at some point you didn't have to open your mouth to say something.
You thought it and whoop, all of a sudden you were there.
Did you have the opportunity to have anything like that?
I didn't communicate with anyone.
I simply observed everything.
So I'm curious, were you wearing anything?
No, I'm very curious.
The reason I asked that is because...
Rubber and clothes don't matter.
But I still remember Prophet was wearing a white suit of honor.
Yeah, so clothes matter.
My question was like, what clothes were you wearing?
Because most people don't seem to be conscious of themselves.
They're more conscious of the things around them
and the experiences that they're having.
Though I'm very curious,
because yours is kind of different from Bunny's.
But the process, the movement from living,
I won't call it life, from being alive
to dying seems to be seamless.
There's no...
It was a smooth transition.
Most people fear death that way.
People don't die like that.
A doctor tell us.
You've seen people die.
People just die.
Let me just put it like that. They just die.
I mean, you've just been talking to someone, a patient,
and then when you try to whatever them,
I think the recent one I've just observed was,
there's a guy who had cancer in the hospital and stuff like that.
I mean, he couldn't communicate because he was speaking Sudanese
and stuff like that, but I think he stopped talking,
started just gazing and stuff like that.
I mean, he seemed normal.
Only that. There's just that look when someone is dead.
I'm glad that you're here.
Now I have to throw this to you.
I've heard people saying,
many people in hospitals, when someone is about to die,
they start to say,
I see my relatives.
They are those.
I'll just use even this particular example.
The old man was actually singing.
It was actually an interesting thing.
It was a pastor.
I didn't want to talk to him.
I was speaking Sudanese.
He was a pastor and he had this end stage cancer
and he happened to succumb to it.
They brought him in when it was too bad love and stuff like that.
But in between some of those sessions,
he wasn't responsive,
but he just woke up and singing and talking to people
who were actually not there.
I mean, what's next?
Come back, the relative tell you.
So medicine would refer to that as hallucinations.
Yes, of course.
But it's very common with that.
And I think even a part of us doctors begin to feel it.
It's no longer more psychosis.
But there are some of those things that tend to happen.
They will begin talking to people.
It's part of the transition process.
Yes.
I think that's why some doctors say that death is a process.
Even if nobody dies, it's a process.
So if human beings are made up of physical, emotional,
psychological intrusions and stuff like that,
I believe before they die, this thing begins to...
Yes, it affects all those aspects of their life.
At least from what I've seen, just from the feeling,
from what they will say, from how they will think,
some of them will feel like,
I think I'm now dying.
So they always have some sort of knowledge of
just when they're about to go.
Yes, yes, they do.
I personally was told,
okay, my mother is late,
but after struggling with sickness and stuff like that
in the hospital, I was told that before she died,
she told my brother, you know what,
now I've left you with the children,
but she was struggling, you understand,
to leave just a few minutes or seconds ago,
and then the language changes.
Now I've left you with the children and stuff like that.
So I think there was just that knowledge,
you know what, now I'm gone.
I want to throw you guys into the deep end.
I want to throw you guys into it.
Gloria, you're not allowed to keep quiet.
We're rolling.
I want to throw you into the deep end here.
When a person dies,
the impression we're giving is that
in the near-death experiences,
actually the ones that we've had,
some people are in a form of limbo.
It's not heaven.
It's not...
Yeah, yes.
It's a realm.
Now, what about other people who die
and their spirits remain here on earth?
I would say yes.
And they walk around earth?
I'm just saying yes.
Because like I said, it's a process.
It's a transition.
And then remember,
the scripture says just to add on,
they are heavenly places.
That means they are heavenly places.
They are opposite.
They are dark places.
All these are realms,
like the valley of the shadow of death.
You understand?
And we all know it's something...
The reason I bring this up,
it's because it's interesting and it's controversial.
There's a lady I know.
I won't mention her because she knows I want to...
She just said,
Rabbi, why did you mention me?
But she has a strange ability to see
people just right after they've died.
Like right after.
So she's not comfortable with going to the funerals
because she sees the spirits.
And I tried to get her here but she was like, no.
But the interesting thing is she told me that
at around 11 years old,
her dad died.
When her dad died,
she was at the funeral
and were burying the body.
But the dad was standing right next to the mom.
That's what she says.
And so the entire time when people were crying,
she could see the dad trying to reach out
and trying to tell the mom something.
But the mother could not comprehend.
But she was like, why are you people crying?
She's 11 years old.
I'm seeing daddy right there.
And then later she realized that he was trying to tell
out where he had put specific things
and titles and all that stuff.
And I found that very interesting
because I don't have a scenario like that
that I can point to in scripture yet.
But it's interesting because we know
that the Bible is kind of a summary of things.
It doesn't say everything.
But what do you guys have to say about that?
Because that's why I brought up that issue of Limboe
of people hanging around.
Are they ghosts?
Because there's a difference between demons
and the spirit of a man
that is purportedly hanging around.
It's amazing.
Deep guys, please.
That's a deep end.
But I'll attempt to give my response on the two.
I think the one where, let's say you have a spirit,
try and stick around.
Most times, in such cases like the story you've shared,
I think it's because the emotion
that's attached to the people they're leaving behind
was still so strong.
And now this comes back to the willpower
that we talked about in the previous session.
That at the end of the day, they're not willing to go yet.
Until maybe, let's say, they've passed on a message.
Because chances are, once they reach the other side,
they have no means of communicating again.
And I want to also believe,
especially if it's a belief or something like that,
usually you will have a welcoming interaction,
either angels or your relatives or something.
But I also want to believe that God is not,
you know, he's not a God of,
no, okay, it's your time, come.
I think there's still some room for,
just give me a few seconds, let me just pass on this information
because if I don't, I know how these guys are,
I know how they'll react emotionally.
So I think there is space for that.
But ultimately, if they were, if they died in Christ,
of course, after that, they will move.
And then for the others, I think it's,
if you're dying, you're not in Christ.
I'm just thinking, maybe there's a state of confusion
and you don't have an entourage to welcome you.
Maybe your demons are still on the way.
I don't know.
Okay, okay.
It's another dimension with Lydia,
because before I bring you,
Lydia, the one who just showed it,
that for her, she meets God and someone tells her,
your time is not yet, you must go back.
And it seems like in that realm,
there's a knowledge of the timing of which a person is supposed to go
because the Bible says it is appointed for each man
to die once and then thereafter judgment.
And we can interpret that differently
because some people think that the moment you die,
you sit before the throne.
And that's not the judgment that scripture is referring to,
but that's for another day.
So there's a knowledge of a time
in which the people have when they're supposed to,
but the Bible does say that a fool can die before his time.
Before his time.
Or even David says, teach me to number my days.
So if the Lord is going to teach you to number,
at the time he stops to number.
Okay, one can take it in days,
days not being days, but I can also be the truth.
To throw more light on his thing,
I want to just bring it from one thing.
Because as he spoke,
now you know the scripture talks about
that when Jesus resurrected, you understand?
I'm just trying to show that the possibility
of people who are dead to move around.
I don't say I'm going.
So Jesus resurrected,
and the Bible says there are saints that resurrected.
Matthew 26.
Who appeared to people.
And then later said it probably with him and stuff like that.
One, that means that just by that possibility
of those saints who had died,
to be able to move around,
shows you that there are dead people who can move around.
I'm just trying to show them the potential
of the possibility, you understand?
So if they were able to move around and appear,
you understand?
It shows us that yes, there are people who can be dead
and appear.
I think that's one of the strangest scriptures in the Bible.
Yes, yes.
Because the Bible says they went into the city
and everyone saw them.
And everyone saw them.
What?
And then it doesn't say what happened to them after that.
Yes, so that's the thing I'm trying to say.
So that means that there's a possibility.
How do you not get born again after that?
It's hard.
Anyway, so I want us to wind up.
Yes, go ahead.
Like you talked about people who are dead appearing.
I don't know if in dreams they count.
Because my dad died in 2017.
But I can tell you he brings instructions.
Of recent at the beginning of the year,
he came to me like in a restaurant setting
and we heard a business meeting.
Like he brought the paperwork.
I can still see what's on the paperwork sometimes.
And he told me, sign here.
I've already told these people about you.
You can do this.
What?
Take this copy to so-and-so.
Take this copy here.
Take that copy here.
What?
It had a huge sum of money you need.
Hey.
But for me, I kind of feel like the dream world is a realm.
And there are various realms.
And I believe the distance between heaven and the natural
can be cut in that realm.
So you could think that a person has appeared to you in your realm.
Yes.
But it's a communication from both realms.
True.
It's like that thing where Abraham is in Abraham's bosom
but there's a chasm separating him from the rich man.
But yet the two can talk.
It's that kind of element.
That's different from a spirit showing up and talks to you.
I just want to wind up with this because I find it interesting.
Because we talk about out-of-body experiences.
Just yesterday someone told me that in their village there's a lady.
They would put some things on her.
And like all the ancestors would enter her.
Then she starts talking like the previous grandfather
and tells them the things of the future.
You understand?
And sounds like...
Person.
Like the person.
That thing also happened with someone I know.
What do you guys have to say about that?
I will.
Of course.
Our first, you know, when I'm thinking about some things,
I first think of the baby liko.
And then I try to stay in the prince and submit it.
There's a concept because even people use familiar spirits.
I mean, we know that.
It's very possible that because what I know is that,
like okay, one other thing I'm just trying to add like,
because spirits can take on form.
And the Bible says that the word, which is spirit,
put on flesh.
And then somewhere it says that the word, I mean Jesus,
was a rock.
You get, was the rock that gave them water.
It shows us a variance of a load.
And forms.
You understand?
So if there's that capacity for spirits to put on forms,
flesh, one, it's very possible.
In one concept, you understand?
And I would say most especially for those who are not in Christ,
for a spirit to take on a form of someone, you know?
Or there's also possibility in your interpretation,
like during dreams and stuff like that,
for you to be able to, like, I love the scripture.
Okay, I don't input it this way.
It says that they spoke in different tongues as,
and they all had.
I mean, they were all speaking,
but a thousand and one people were all here in their language.
When you read it on the platform,
you may think they were speaking different languages.
You understand?
They were actually just speaking.
They were speaking.
They were just speaking,
and each one was able to hear.
That means it shows you that if we take it more
from a communication concept voice,
that means that if you go to the visual,
it's possible for God to send out a signal,
and you pick it in your language.
Very true.
That means he can send out, he can send a messenger,
and then by reason of your interpretation of your language,
your language goes back to the person, the nature, the kind.
You see the person that you relate with.
That's like your language, something like that.
So there's also that concept where people appear to you,
and it's because of you that you're able to interpret it that way.
And also because if he would send it another way,
you wouldn't appreciate the message as much as if it's from that kind of person.
Yes, and that's why I said, let's imagine,
let's imagine that time they were not speaking,
that the signal that was being sent forth was visual.
You understand?
They would all see something different based on their kind.
That's very interesting.
As we wind up...
Ah man, this topic is just...
I feel the stuff, we haven't touched what I would call raising the dead,
because I think that's a whole different concept to it.
Have you ever raised the dead man?
Ah man, I tried.
The concept of raising the dead,
I would have loved to talk about, from a biblical perspective,
the levels in hell and the levels in heaven,
because I think all these fall within near-death experiences,
and people have told us about differences,
because all these people that have these experiences
go to certain realms in the spirit.
Obviously heaven is not just one place,
and in the same way hell is not just one place,
it's like there are shades of darkness,
and yet at every level, everyone feels their darkness is the worst.
Worst for me, I don't want to...
Because I've had my hell experiences,
and they were not near-death experiences.
That's another story for another day,
but I've also had heavenly ones,
and all of us have had heavenly experiences.
But I would like us to give our last words,
because Gloria has given us our experience,
which was unique in a way.
It shows us that out of every gazillion of people who die,
one goes through light,
and the rest are just going down a tunnel,
and we do not want to talk about what that is.
Do you have any last statements on this particular topic,
near-death and out-of-body, before we say goodbye,
and let the viewers ponder on the rest of the topics
in relation to this one?
For me, my last words would be that people should be conscious
that that person you have next to you,
who is somehow special to you in any way,
your workmate, your relative,
whoever is near you and hasn't heard the gospel,
it's very vital because any minute,
you could all just end in that kind of situation,
and the person who may not have another chance,
if they have another chance and they are returned well and good,
but they may never have another chance to encounter Christ,
so the passion to spread the gospel should really become a sport.
And leave alone that intimacy with God.
Yes.
For me, I don't want to enter heaven limping.
I know you guys.
You enter heaven like some people have been limping.
You know, life has been hard, grueling.
That's not my portion.
Well, I don't know.
Let me just give my own personal thing.
You're medical.
No, okay.
Go ahead.
I would give what I know is good for someone to hear,
but I would just say what is in my heart.
Well, listening to all this, one scripture comes to me,
call unto me, and I'll show you great and mighty.
I'm someone who loves to know things.
I love to know things.
I feel like there's a lot to know.
Just not know, but I'll say there's a lot the Lord wants us to show us as Christians,
because we must have answers for people.
You understand?
Different people get through these different things here,
and sometimes when you don't have, you may not know.
I mean, the Bible talks about us being equipped.
Be able to pitch the word, season out,
or the Bible says being equipped with the word of God,
that the man of God may be perfect holy for every good work.
You never know who will come to you.
You understand?
I mean, it's just a thing.
I mean, whoever will listen to this podcast, or after here.
I mean, when you've asked that question,
you go back and ask God and try to find out it,
because one time it may save someone from turning to wrong advice or right advice.
That's on top of...
I mean, these questions leave hanging.
That's on top of what you learn from the experience and stuff like that.
But go on and find out.
I saw this.
Okay, I heard this and stuff like that.
God, what is it?
What is it?
Because you never know.
Okay, you never know.
Maki, your last words?
Yeah.
I think for me, this was just...
It's nice for us, even for the people out there, too.
It's like a last wake-up call to the realization that we are more than human,
and we have abilities, like you said, which are beyond the five senses.
Because in her story, she says,
she could tell that this worship was affecting the farthest of the east,
of the west, of the north, of the south,
but she did not go to the farthest of these places.
She just...
She was connected to it.
Now, if we can borrow leaves from that, if we can tap into that
and use that to affect our world here,
because I don't believe glimpses like that,
opportunities like that are just for us to say,
oh, and then leave it at that, then come back and just...
So it's just a wake-up call for us to realize that we have those abilities,
and we can conjure them up, and we can use them to affect our world.
So for me, that was the beauty with this.
I'm going to say, in Luke chapter 16...
Oh, is it 16?
Yeah, Luke chapter 16, a story of Lazarus and the rich man.
The rich man is dead.
He's already in hell.
And he calls out to Abraham that he might be sent back
to warn his family about this particular place.
And he's already quoted it, and he said,
they have Moses and the prophets.
Now, I'm going to use that for the near-death experiences.
When you listen to a podcast or a person who has had an experience like this,
a dead person has been sent to you.
A person who has died has been sent to you.
You can't...
Don't think that when you die, you're going to tell God,
send me back because you might have a rich man experience.
So you use the ones who are around to receive the message.
That's the reason we do this.
That's the reason we do this podcast.
That's the reason why we've had this particular topic.
And my point to you is, be diligent.
Search out.
Most importantly, grow intimate with God.
Thank you for listening.
I would like to thank the doctor.
Dr. George.
That doctor.
Thank you so much for coming.
The deepest doctor I know.
I would like to thank Gloria Mahoro.
Mrs. Gloria Mahoro.
Thank you so much for your experience.
We know that you had other experiences as well,
but time could not allow us to dive into them.
You didn't talk about your third child and all that.
We don't know if they will be...
They won't be a fourth child.
Okay.
We'd like to thank you so much.
Michael Host, Afimani McLean.
Thank you so much for coming.
Ladies and gentlemen, see you next time.
God bless you.
You